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Xforts Video on KH

Discussion in 'General Kingdom Hearts' started by Derek, Sep 4, 2019.

  1. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    I watched this last night, still think it was very good, but one thing that stuck on my brain was his footnote on nobodies.

    For him, he found it a bit of a shame the series doesn’t stick well to deeper things it explores and shows it’s potential for but overall didn’t mind.

    To me though I did find it a bit of a shame and I’m reluctant to even speak this because you can never say what I’m about to without some Roxas fan letting biased set them into attack mode which seemingly makes any actual open minded discussion in a KH fandom impossible. (worse so as time progresses)

    Originally posted by no13roxas

    Personally, I’m not that attached to Roxas or his little group and find it more of a shame that the cloned cast is developed more than Sora or Kairi are. Riku’s the only developed one of the original cast.

    I also considered Roxas story arc over personally. He was a fun mystery in KH2 and you have to keep in mind that within KH2, before the context of Days existed, being whole was portrayed as the best outcome for a nobody.

    Yen Sid himself bluntly states they’re destined to fade away regardless. DiZ, in CoM, mentions they have the coat at all to avoid it as even they can’t truly master darkness.

    They’re beings that shouldn’t exist because they’re the will, mind, and memory of a heart that’s been lost. They’re clinging to reality by a thread and it’s only ever temporary.

    But, of course, this is old context. Days established that if conditions are met that a nobody can want to be their own person instead of just wishing to reclaim their hearts. (and Blank Points fueled fans hope for them being saved)

    Prior to Days existing, the only in depth discussion of this was with Roxas. The ambiguity he provided was very nice and I do feel it should’ve been left that way.

    Originally posted by memoriaxion-moved

    Anyway, most get mad to label “mature” and I’m not even sure that’s the proper label myself. I do however felt Roxas story arc was finished and that it was a glimpse of KH’s potential for deeper concepts while also channeling that dark nature older Disney had. (some FF has in most titles)

    I truly do believe a good number of characters only came back because fans wanted them too despite their narrative having a full outcome. I also hate to see people say this is merely “wanting trauma for trauma’s sake” when most of those same people admit they like Roxas angst.

    It’s like a dismissive comment to a discussion that no one forced you to post in to begin with. That said however, I do think Xion’s story was trauma for trauma’s sake while Roxas story was just a tragic heroes narrative.

    Because Roxas was introduced in KH2, seemed to fulfill the happiest outcome he could within in its context, and then Days showed us his life in full. Days didn’t really explore things it promised or give Roxas the development he should’ve had but it was a full story.

    Xion on the other hand was introduced in Days but then needed an explanation as to why she wasn’t in KH2 or why she wasn’t remembered. While also explaining why Roxas ran away despite him not remembering why he ran away.

    Originally posted by hayner

    This is what makes her feel like a “fanfic insert” for a lot of people I believe. She was some super secret wielder that everyone just so happened to forget. You also went in knowing from the get go something had to have happened and that it motivated Roxas.

    She was literally written to be traumatic in Roxas life for the sake of that trauma. Which I dont really hold that against her. Writing could’ve been better and the Days manga made her likable.

    I also know that KH3 has happened, they’re back, it’s a fairy tale, and their popular. So I’m not really bitching about it now. It’s just a thought that’s been stuck in my mind because I do agree with his footnote.

    I just hold more value in it because I’ve been at this since 2002 compared to Xforts starting this in 2019.
    It felt like Blank Point forwards went out of it’s way to deconstruct the deeper avenues or risks a character could have in KH for the sake of everyone getting happy endings….only for Sora to die anyway. Cause fuck Kairi I guess.

    Originally posted by vector-totheheavens

    This felt ever worse with DDD which just threw in new rules to explain things rather than use it’s established universe foundation or when KH3 just solved everything with Replicas.

    I wont lie, I appreciated Roxas more when he was a tragic hero and I’m the type of person that thinks a character should bow out once the narrative ends for them. While Xion felt like trauma for the sake of Roxas having trauma.

    I also dont think characters should just die off cause they can. I just prefer resolution and I prefer Roxas and his friends as tragic entities rather than blonde Sora and gang.

    And if they had stuck to their guns I would’ve wanted it referenced. Like having Sora’s manifest in KHDDD as an AntiRoxas for example. Their tragedy should’ve attributed to Sora’s growth since they are parts of Sora. At least in this timeline I’ve imagined.

    I dunno. It just feels like one of the bigger bullet points in KH as a whole, it back peddles on it’s own potential and does unnecessary things because Nomura either has a boner for plot twists or because fan outcry is so big.

    Because, lets be honest, the only thing keeping most of you there is the cast. Most of the aspects me and many of you like is head canons from your favorite fan artist, a novel, or Amano’s manga adaptions.

    I’m just annoyed this takes precedence over story or development of others. I want established rules followed and resolutions left at their conclusions.
    Kitty likes this.
  2. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    I didn't watch the video, but I agree about the nobodies, especially what you said about Roxas. Roxas and Namine had fine endings at the end of KH II and I couldn't have cared less to never hear from or see them again. The idea of nobodies living on as separate beings from their somebodies has always seemed idiotic to me, and I don't think playing the games for whatever canon explanation there is for that being possible would change my opinion on it. I've also always thought the clone bullshit was lame. I think the cast kind of got too big, when they should've focused more on developing characters like Kairi who'd been around since the beginning.

    I think in general, it's a very bad idea for the creative heads of a franchise to spend too much time thinking about what the fans want. I mean, yeah, you want there to be some fanservice, you want people to be invested in the story, but when you start coming up with ridiculous plot points and justifications to keep characters around who should have been killed off (or bring characters back to life who should have stayed dead), I think you're doing your story, and ultimately the fans, a disservice. I've seen it too often in other fandoms where they keep characters around too long because the fans like them (or the creators like them) and it ends up really hurting the story and sometimes even ruining the characters.
  3. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    @Kitty I recommend watching it even if it's in spurts. Seeing his journey and footnotes was fun and I can understand his views and happier outlook. He touched on this issue to begin with but dropped it cause, for him, it's what you'd expect as a fan starting in 2019. His statements on DDD were probably the highlight.

    Anyway, I really do feel like Nobodies was an idea good on paper but done very poorly or best not used. At the very least, it probably should've been a topic introduced and left in KH2. The more elaborated the more issues it brings up. Such as the fading issue I mentioned, it's brought up but you never see a nobody do this which really shoots a hole of it as a threat.
    It didn't need to be an important nobody but we should've at least seen one struggle to stay together. Their personalities shouldn't have been so genuine either...which is weird to say but it really hurt the message they were less than human. (since they weren't)

    The closest a nobody got to it's core concept was Demyx's performance in KH2. He puts up a facade but the moment he's in a battle it disappears instantly. They all should've been similar in the sense that you had a moment to see them drop the act...sadly Demyx then died cowering but that prefight was what I'd hoped to have seen.

    Oh it definitely got way too big and then the story would get new "twists" before a set of characters were developed decently. It's a constant pattern and the "man behind the man" trope continues even into 3 now that we know Xigbar is a key KHUX figure.
    The cast got so big without proper handling that the clones are developed more than the basis, its so strange and annoying to me....

    lol Reminds me of Roman from RWBY. Staff and fans loved him and kept him around longer than he was planned and once he finally did die the fans flipped their shit acting ridiculous.
    Kitty likes this.
  4. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    I feel like all of the nobodies should have been straight up sociopaths, and no one can convince me otherwise. None of this regrowing hearts or whatever. Any emotions shown by any of the nobodies should have been completely fake for a specific end goal. That could have been something Roxas dealt with during his opening in KH II, maybe realizing that he doesn't react to things the way the other characters do and that being another clue that he doesn't belong. And any nobodies should have either rejoined with their somebodies like Sora/Roxas in KH II or faded away and been done with in the series. In my opinion. XD

    Yes, exactly this! I really enjoyed Demyx so much.

    My first thought was Sylar from Heroes and Cersei Lannister and Arya Stark from Game of Thrones, but I could probably list so many examples. Another KH example would be Axel.
  5. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    lol I dont know about a sociopath since that too would require a sense of emotion or personality but they definitely should've acted as described. You could even make their deaths creepy but showing how emotionless they are. No shrieks or cries, they just stare blankly because they can't even gather enough emotion to experience death.

    I would've killed them all off myself. Roxas and Namine would be where the plan hits a bump in the road but you can easily explain their oddity as a result of Sora and Kairi still being around.
    Your idea would even work really well with this concept because Roxas would know he reacts which nobodies shouldn't do but he also knows he doesn't react correctly because of his connection to Sora.

    He'd have a faint instinct it's not normal but care way less than he should. I share the opinion since everything after KH2 trying to "fix" it has just made a mess.

    The Axel one is the worst one I know of to the extent he's self aware of it in KH3 and makes a stated line, in-game, poking fun at it.
  6. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    I mean, they don't necessarily have to be violent or "evil", but the faking emotions, lack of impulse control and care about personal safety, and manipulative behaviors of a sociopath would fit in well with how a nobody should act, in my opinion. They honestly all should have been downright creepy/uncanny valley. They aren't real people. I feel like the game never really took that far enough, except maybe with Demyx. There was a lot they could have done with characters like these, once they chose to introduce the concept into the series.

    I would have killed every one of them as well, including Roxas and Namine, and rejoiced in the fans whining about it. I'm still confused about how the heartless and nobody shit all works, honestly, especially with Roxas/Sora and Namine/Kairi and I think it'll never make sense to me.

    I'm just going to continue considering everything besides KH, COM, and KH II non-canon and ignore it all. It's kind of a satisfying series that way.

    I feel like that's how you wear out a character's welcome. And also why some creators need an editor/someone who will tell them 'no, that's stupid; don't do that.' But I was never much of an Axel fan anyway, so I don't get the hype about him.
  7. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    They didn't push it far enough truly. They didn't push it at all really when you look back since they were written as entities lacking emotion but they do nothing but emote. They were written like normal villains instead of half human monsters.

    I'd definitely love if they had followed a creepier tone with them. From how their personalities drop on a dime, flip from one extreme to another showcasing they're putting up a front, or even normal people referencing that nobodies "feel off". As if another being could tell on instinct these things aren't right.

    The basic concept is that a heartless is the heart's darkness run rampant while the nobody is a heart's will that was too strong to disappear. The nobody is like an "emotion zombie" their bodies are alive but they're empty inside.

    Then you get into crap like Roxas or Namine and lord forbid Ansem and Xemnas. Namine to this very day hasn't been explained and we dont know how Kairi helped Sora manifest a human body with Roxas running around.

    It's just left to ponder.

    I dont get the Axel hype either. He's not bad but I definitely liked the portal in CoM more than later.
  8. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    Yes to all of this. Almost all of the nobodies we meet are villains. I know KH has more of a kid-friendly tone, but I still think it would have been appropriate for them to go all out with making the antagonists scary in this way. It would have made for unpredictable, interesting antagonists, without needing to add in stupid twists just to be surprising.

    What could have been.

    I hate all of this. Should've left it as just heartless and called it good if they were just going to come up with this idea and not follow it through.
  9. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    Tbh Kh doesn't even have the family friendly excuse given some of it's darker undertones such as human experimentation, destruction of worlds, what Xehanort has done to children and friends, etc.
    Hell, in BBS you see Xehanort stab Eraqus in the back, literally. The attack is off screen but you hear the sound, see Eraqus' reaction, then see him fade away in death sparkles. All the while Terra saw it happen in front of him.

    But yes, the nobodies were a wasted concept. Hell, I wish they had stuck to heartless. It's not like you couldn't have the ORG. Just tweak it so that the organization in KH2 was heartless like Ansem. Self aware body snatchers, bing bang boom ya got those characters.
    Kitty likes this.
  10. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    ^ I like your phrase "darker undertones" because I think that describes it well. I think the Disney characters and some of the sillier dialogue still lends itself to a kid-friendlier tone, at least compared to what the story could've been if it was rated more mature. An actual M-rated KH would have been pretty sweet.

    I think it's too bad, because the nobodies could have been really cool. I really liked the designs of the lesser ones in KH II and liked fighting them. The humanoid ones just fell a little short, I guess. I wouldn't have minded just sticking with heartless and having the organization being heartless like Ansem. I think that would have changed a lot of the story, though (not that I necessarily would find that a bad thing).
  11. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    Thanks lol
    I wouldn't want something rated higher than it is personally but I do think the friendly tone the series puts off vs some of the stuff that happens off screen is hilarious. How'd Kairi get on the islands? Crazy scientist threw her into space. What is a heartless? Basically a zombie-like plague. Eraqus? Stabbed in the back in the literal sense. Sora stabs himself in kh1 with a giant key. etc

    It's really funny to list this stuff to people who aren't familiar. xD

    The lesser nobodies definitely sale the concept better but they made a poor decision to humanize the leaders. There's no basic distinction between a humanoid nobody and a human.

    It would've changed it a lot after KH2 for sure but I think for the better. Especially since you can't pull the nobody+heartless=reformation sh&t.
  12. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    I mean, the series is fine at the rating it is. Anything higher probably would have hurt sales and Disney would never have allowed it anyway, with how strict they are on their properties. But I'm just over here imagining all of the crazy visuals that could have come with a much darker take on the story.

    Yeah, I think that would have been a good thing.

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