• Square Elite
  1. If you are having trouble logging in, check the box, "stay logged in" to fix the issue. Thanks! —KHP Staff
  2. Hi Guest, you may have noticed that we aren't khplanet.com anymore. For more information on why these changes are happening, check out our thread, Site Re-Brand Updates

Something I think many should see

Discussion in 'General' started by Derek, Nov 16, 2018.

  1. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    Whether it be Tetsuya Nomura, writers, etc.
  2. Angel

    Angel Lion Heart Staff Member Administrator

    Pretty much hit the nail on the hammer. Either time travel is trival, contradicting or too complicated. I've never ran into a story that time travel was actually done really well.
  3. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    I've always enjoyed time travel in stories, but it's a trope that I admittedly can't think about too closely because it tends to break the story or just make no sense. It also tends to turn the characters into morons. There's pretty much no problem that couldn't be solved by traveling back in time a little, but that'd be boring and the conflict would be over too quickly, so the writers either nerf the characters or make them forget that they can actually time travel *coughHeroescough*.
    Desert Warrior likes this.
  4. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    Same. I'm more lenient of stories that are made with the trope in mind but it's rarely done well. Games like Chrono Trigger or Ocarina of Time are among my faves but they were made with the time travel as a core aspect, it wasn't something added later in a lazy fashion.

    I think that's the most annoying part, it's always used as a last minute fix. Things like Terminator abandoning it's own established rules post T2 or Xehanort, in one sentence, saying he can't alter history but also saying his subconscious memories of traveling will guide him to his bald future.
  5. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    I can overlook when the time travel is messed up or breaks its own rules if the story is otherwise good. The problem with the Terminator sequels post T2 (and I've seen all the films except Salvation) is that the stories just aren't very good. And I don't even mind the sequels that much, and actually kinda liked Genisys when I saw it in the theater. But when you compare the writing on those films to the writing on the first two, there is no comparison.

    I agree that time travel can be annoying when it is used as a last minute fix when the writer has written themselves into a corner and isn't smart enough to come up with a better solution. I also think it can sometimes be depressing. In a time travel story like FFVIII with a stable time loop, the struggle the characters face seem a little futile at the end when you realize they didn't really fix anything.
  6. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    I can depending but it's rare since I view the breaking of it's own logic as a writing flaw. The last T movie I saw was Salvation which ironically lacked it lol but I have heard of Genisys and I'd rather avoid it due to that. The first two movies had that stable time loop in which John Conner and Skynet unknowingly create themselves. T3 tried to stick to that at least but eh

    That does sound depressing. So FF8 is doomed to it's loop even at the end?
    On of my favorite uses of TT in a game series is Chrono Trigger but, and this a minority statement, I also liked FF13-2 despite it. I mean, it's not even worth defending and I can see why it made friends mad. Me on the other hand, I hated 13 so the gameplay freedom was enough for me to ignore them retconning an entire close ended game. (too bad they lost me yet again with the "true ending" dlc) (i didn't even get LR)

    I didn't mind it kinda like how fans dont mind or defend DDD time travel in a sense.

    OH! Ever play Chrono Cross?
  7. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    VIII's story is honestly riddled with plot holes but I can't help but love it. I assume you don't care about spoilers for a 20 year old game.

    The main villain is a sorceress from a very distant future who learns of a prophecy that she will be defeated by a "legendary SeeD" (in-game mercenaries created to fight sorceresses, in this case, referring to Squall). To avoid this, and to punish a world that has hated and persecuted sorceresses like her since before her birth, she sends her consciousness back in time to the game's present (and later goes further to the game's past) in an attempt to compress time/space and become a god. She creates a stable time loop that includes the worst of her villainy and, rather like Skynet/John Connor, her meddling in the past sets in motion the means to defeat her and the environment that will create her. Even though the heroes technically defeat her, at some time in their future, she will be born and it will all start again. So the ending is sort of depressing and futile, even though the day is saved for now.

    Writing about it makes me want to play it again. Maybe once this semester is over and done with.

    No, and I had always wanted to. I might have to pick it up one of these days.
  8. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    Damn that is depressing D: The game must be very fun if you liked it despite that however.
    Try Chrono Cross! It's very fun imo Lots of cast characters you can get, sadly you see little, if any, of Chrono Triggers cast.
  9. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    Ha, most people seem to hate the game play, but yes, I think it's a great game.

    I will have to try Chrono Cross some day!
  10. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    They hate it?
  11. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    Yeah, in my experience VIII is one of the least liked in the series. That's a topic for another thread, though. ^_^
  12. Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    Did I ever mention I finally beat it a few years back? Anyways, I remember once reading some speculation that VIII's didn't actually have a futile ending. Okay, I don't know if it was speculation or simple fan theory, but basically the thought was that VIII instead ends with them breaking away from the time loop. Like, in a way, picture linear time represented as a wire. The events of the game loop around and around and around, like a spring. But at the end of that spring, the line straightens out again and continues onward in a straight line. I don't remember if there was any evidence for this idea or if it was simply somebody's way of justifying VIII keeping a happy ending and not being pointless.
    Kitty likes this.
  13. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    I suppose you could argue that the events we play in the game are the first go around in the loop (that Edea came up with Garden/SeeD in a different way and hadn't inherited Ultimecia's powers) and that time compression and Squall and Ultimecia ending up briefly in the past created a new/alternate timeline wherein Squall gave Edea the idea for SeeD, Edea inherited Ultimecia's powers, and a new future could evolve from that past moment, a "new game +" in which Ultimecia never mucked around in the present. I never saw the game as anything but a stable time loop, though. But I suppose for the heroes, as far as they know it is a happy ending, because Ultimecia is from such a far future that they are all likely long dead before she gains power and screws everything up in her present.
  14. Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    Ah, that reminds me. Possible argument as to it not being a stable time loop. This argument may enforce the idea of it being a downer ending.

    Sorceress powers in FFVIII are passed on from one woman to another and a sorceress cannot die (Or at the very least cannot die peacefully) until she passes on her powers. Ultimecia is far enough into the future that she is the only sorceress left and as such, is logically the culmination of all sorceress' powers. This would obviously include Edea's/Rinoa's sorceress power. As she's dying, she passes her power onto Edea who already is a sorceress at that point. As we know through the events of the game, Edea will pass on that power to Rinoa and then logically it will make its way back to Ultimecia.

    But here lies the problem. Unless Ultimecia's power degrades as she travels back in time or sorceress' being given more power doesn't add up like you would think (i.e. power+power=/=2*power), each cycle of this time loop would result in a more powerful Ultimecia. So at some point her power would become too great for Squall and the rest to be able to stop.

    Now that I'm thinking about it though, a counter argument to this is that the same applies to Rinoa. Each cycle she gets that stronger sorceress power + Adel's power + the power of every sorceress that they fight while traveling through time to reach Ultimecia.
    Kitty likes this.
  15. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    I had this exact thought and I kind of love this idea. I find the hopelessness of it all really appealing (don't know what that says about me, lol). I think this is part of what I love about the game, and time travel in general- it opens up a lot of theories and possibilities, bad writing or no.
    Desert Warrior likes this.
  16. EtherealSummoner

    EtherealSummoner Lamentations 3:22-26

    The only games where time travel is effective to me is Dark Cloud, Dark Cloud 2, FFVIII, Prince of Persia: Warrior Within, Ape Escape and Bayonetta 2. Time travel in Kingdom Hearts 3D was meh to me. Bayonetta 2 only used time travel as a means to find out what happened and not to alter anything and that itself was good. Even Kingdom Hearts 2 at Disney Castle going to the Timeless River was better than Kingdom Hearts 3D using time travel.
  17. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    Bayonetta 2 is arguably one of the few decent examples or retroactive storytelling. It doesn't change anything that happened, it's like the time meddling we saw in 1 and it explained Baldur.

    I think stories made with it in mind generally do better by default.
  18. Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    lol. No worries, it doesn't say anything bad about you. Honestly sometimes stories that are hopeless or end on a depressing note or something are just really good.

    For example, I remember reading one manga, A Silent Voice. It's not a depressing story by any means, but honestly one of the things that kept me reading chapter after chapter was that a majority of the characters were just terrible people. I would definitely recommend giving it a read if you can. They made an anime movie adaptation out of it, but I feel it is best read. No idea if the movie cut out anything or not.
    Kitty likes this.
  19. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    I started replaying and am being reminded how much I truly love this game. I have so many more thoughts on the time wonkiness of the story, but I'm wanting to play through to the end and remind myself exactly how it all went down before I ramble on about it anymore. 'Course, I'm not sure if I'll ever get there with the hours I'm spending playing cards instead of advancing the story. :p

    *coughASongofIceandFirecough* I definitely get the appeal of following along with shitty people. Those kinds of awful or at least morally gray characters are my favorites. I don't generally do much with manga, but I may have to check that out if I come across it one day.

    I agree. I think it's something that really needs to be plotted out; you can't just throw it in there when you get written into a corner and hope it all makes sense.
    Desert Warrior likes this.
  20. Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    Well as a heads up, it's a high school drama type story. Basically story opens up with a class in middle school getting an exchange student who happens to be deaf. All the kids pick on her (Ridiculous how awful they are), they go too far by damaging the girl's hearing aid, then they all end up pinning the blame on the main character who, to be fair, did start the bullying. His mom ends up having to pay for the hearing aid, which obviously is expensive. Deaf girl ends up transferring out of school. Fast forward a few years to high school. Main character feels super guilty about what he did and manages to earn enough money to give to his mother to make up for the hearing aid and after doing that he plans on killing himself.

    All of this is in the first 2 or 3 chapters. But dammit if it didn't draw me in. I remember staying up late reading it when I had a chemistry class the next morning.
    Kitty likes this.

Share This Page