Religion

Not really. Logic can be the smartest or most obvious thing to do, but sometimes what appears to be logical can be wrong, depending on your perspective. As an example; my dad thinks that 4 X 0 = 4. But he also thinks that 0 X 4 = 0. He explains that if you have something, like 4 cups for example, you are saying you have those 4 objects. And if you multiply it by 0, you still have 4 because you started with 4. I understand how he thinks like that, but I know that he is wrong. It is just logical to him.

Okay, that is a red flag for me. God knew that they would sin. But He let it happen because He will not affect a person's free will. Here's another example. In the Bible, Jesus is God (I know it sounds strange to some, but bear with me). Jesus knew that he was going to die, even before it happened. But if God is not all knowing, how did Jesus know what was gonna happen to him?

 

So how is it free will if someone already knew it would happen?

 

It's free will because Jesus could have avoided it. But he knew that he was supposed to, and he went through it, even though he was scared of death.

 

No I meant how could someone making a choice be free will if God already knew what choice they would make.

 

God knows what they will do, but He won't affect their decision at all. That is how He doesn't affect free will.

 

This is why I don't like Christianity, believing in Jesus won't get you to heaven. Never. Its karma. Play along the rules of life, and you'll ascend to Paradise.....(hopefully)....
Being a "good person" is what'll get you to heaven. Not believing in someone who plays mind games with truth. Also, if you read the New Testament, you'll see that a lot of moral concepts Jesus taught were based on principles of karma. Like:" Love your neighbor as yourself," and such. Thats a really old concept.

logic is absolute. If you can't see that, then your mind is not.
But I agree with you that god knew they were gonna sin in some sense. He could see the different outcomes, and let it resolve itself.

Jesus, scared of death? He wasn't exactly excepting it, but he was tolerant I'd think. If he was scared, then he was not a god on earth.

exactly

By being a bi-stander. he can't correct everything, nor protect everyone. He wishes to feel something real, thats why he can't save everyone from the evil in the world, they have to choose him over the temptation.

I guess I agree with you....for the most part.
God gave free will to living creatures so they wouldn't be robotically loving him. It would be "real", it wouldn't be something "programmed" into their soul to love him. Thats why we have free will.

 

What I meant to say was that what is logical is just a perspective. Here's another example. Global Warming. Even if you don't believe in it, just listen. To some, continuing global warming to make Earth inhospitable and end up killing all of mankind seems logical. Now, that may not seem logical to you, but it is logical to others.

Well, he did know of it. In the Bible, there is a part where he is praying to God to let him not have to go through his death. He was scared to the point of sweating blood. And not only is he God, but he is also a man too. That is why he was afraid of dying.

 

Oh, I see what u were saying. But that just means one persons mind isn't absolute, and their logic is unbalanced, making them "wrong".

God is not scared of anything. If he was a man, he was scared, if he wasn't he was part god. Thats just how it is, their is no inbetween. Inbetweens are a thing Liberals use all the time, they wont say yes or no, they'll say maybe to be "safe", but they'll really want to say no, or yes. Do you understand?

 

when you think about it religions are very important part of life as it give people something to beleve in. without it we would all be walkin around clueless. but sayin that there are problems with religion like for example the roote of most wars are about different religions

 

I see what u'r saying. I agree, religion is overall a great thing. It helps people with their own "karma", and moral order within one's conscionse. being in touch with god is nothing to be ashamed of at all. But the really bad people in the world have twisted the termz of religion and god as something bad, war starters, racist, power and money hungry thieves. But thats not the truth in religion, those are the "evil people" that corrupt the minds of the masses for control. RELIGION IS GOOD! Thats as basic as it gets, without getting into all the really "smart stuff", big words and all that junky junk. (running low on time, gotta catch my girl friend).

 

That's the thing. In the Bible, Jesus was both God and Man. It's kinda confusing. He isn't an inbetween thing though, he's both.

 

The trinity is the most confusing thing in Christian religions. It's one of those mysteries that we are 'free to ponder' but ultimately will never understand. Maybe this is the quitter answer...but I don't think God is understandable.

In regards to logic: Logic is systematic...but it is solid. In particular, what you're describing is one's 'personal' sense of logic, more precisely termed reasoning.

In regards to the 4x0 = 4 bit, this may make sense in one's personal interpretation of the universe and thus their reasoning however logically it is incorrect....why? Because it's provably false...and there are a number of methods, such as creating a consistent and complete system which models multiplication and producing the theorem 4x0 = 0 (or equivalently, ~4x0=4 (read "not 4x0=4")).

Alternatively, I can work some of my math witchcraft (haha). Foregoing some of the details and appealing to intuition, the standard interpretation of 'times' is distributive, so since 0 = (1 - 1):

4 x 0
= 4 x (1 - 1)
= 4 - 4
= 0


Or there's the so-called 'preschooler's argument.' a x b is interpreted as 'a strips each of length b.' So 0 x 4 = no strips of length 4...but 4 x 0 = 4 strips of length 0...but having a strip of length 0 is actually 'nothing.' So 4 x 0 = 'nothing.'


But the point is, this is an important distinction to be made...namely 'logic' in the sense that I was refering to (I'm the one who brought it into the discussion if I recall correctly) is a systematic approach to solving problems/producing theorems...logic in the conventional sense is more properly termed 'reasoning.' They're different concepts. Thus LOGIC is absolute**...REASONING need not be.

**Of course one's system of logic may change, for instance if you alter your choice of axioms...but within a given system, logic is absolute.

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Free will:

Free will is man's ability to make his own decisions. It does not give him dominion over God...ie. the ability to 'mess up' or alter God's creation. I think I've given a number of reasons why God not knowing the outcome is a contradiction. I hate to use the words 'finger in your ears' again...but...

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Mythril_Roxas said: "Also, if you read the New Testament, you'll see that a lot of moral concepts Jesus taught were based on principles of karma. Like:" Love your neighbor as yourself," and such. Thats a really old concept."

This is one of the underlying principles of just about every religion there is: the so-called "Golden Rule." Instead of saying "This is KARMA'S principle" for instance, one might be so inclined to say "all of these religions are trying to communicate some point." They all have some common ground...and as I said before, I believe God draws all to Him. It's not about stealing the idea from other religions, or anything of that sort...perhaps all of these religions are just 'on the right track.'

(About me: And so my personal belief is that every religion (arguably) has some good to offer...so we should strive to pick out the good points from as many as we can. I for instance really respect the discipline that goes into the Islamic religion, such as fasting for the entire month of Ramadan. I don't think it's perhaps, entirely necessary to do this, but it's not 'wrong' to do so, and thus if it's offered to God anyway, it's admirable and we should all try to love God in a little more disciplined/sacrificial fashion. The problem of course is that this defies the 'logical' constructs in my faith as this is purely subjective).

 

Sorry Mike, but those are quitting wordz. The "bad guys" don't want us to figure it all out. Thus, they've tricked the masses into believing God can't be fully "understood". This is partialy true. Deep down we do know, we do understand, all lot of people "over think" god. I hate it when people say:"Oh, we'll never know this or that or the other thing", they're putting limitations on KNOWLEDGE. And thats the key to understanding the truth. KNOWLEDGE.

logic is absolute, reasoning is like a persons conscounce, allowing them to make the descision of following whats right and/or "logical", or whats wrong and/or "non-logical". Many people twist the meaning of reasoning,to be lazy about their problemz.

Exactly, their wrong. Wrong is wrong. Correct is correct. Wrong is never Correct.Correct is never Wrong. Its always one way or the other, noy both. Thats a mathematical theology, theres always only One answer.

lots of witches use numbers as symbolz of gods in alchemic and crazy ass stuff with summoning demons in shit. Witchcraft.......lol

I agree, especially the last part about "Thus LOGIC is absolute**...REASONING need not be."

Lucifer F'ed up God's creation by his free will of falling away from god. As did the third of the angels who followed him. Free will has "some" power over god, but not absolute power over god. Love FROM his creation is what god seeks.

Or the wrong one. Its easier to trick people then to make everyone do the right thing, because were all sinful. But if you could trick someone into doing something that they think is "right", then the "trickster" has complete control. He's made the one tricked "closed-minded".

Interesting. I seem to feel that you (Mike) are a good person, and that you try to do your best, and wish others would to. I'm the same. I do all i can for the glory of God, but also to set an example for my neighbor to follow in my foot steps.
You see, the Key to Paradise is discipline, truth, and joy. Supposedly they wont let you into heaven according to Egyptians if you don't find your inner joy, and give joy to another. I find this concept the way to live life.

 

"Life's a dream...and I had a good one."

I disagree with one point in your comprehension of God, that seems quite fundamental to what you believe: I don't think God seeks, or needs anything from His creation. That would be an imperfection (particularly since we are imperfect), and I think above all my belief is in the perfection of God.

The knowledge of who God is, the truth...exists. Existence does not imply attainability however...I think we could never comprehend what it is, only approximate it...like artificial intelligence.

God made beings who can self replicate, create copies of themselves, think critically and learn (as opposed to just react). Human beings can't do the same (currently, although it seems like we may never be able to), namely we cannot create artificial intelligence...we can only approximate it.

Is "This sentence is false" a true statement? Or a false one? I believe the answer exists...it's just not attainable. We can't comprehend it...it's a simple philosophy, a humble philosophy, which hasn't been implanted into my head by 'the bad guys.' (Infact, the ideas that 'the bad guys' are pitching these days are promiscuity, immoral social gatherings, and a god-less universe)

Try this as an exercise: prove to yourself, beyond all doubt, that you existed yesterday. I can't do this...I can't even prove I exist now. Once you see this inherent flaw in our reality...you might see things a bit more like I do. Consciousness...is relative. Knowledge is relative.

I don't think I can convince you otherwise, or vice versa. But it's good to at least nail down where we differ.

EDIT: When I say I believe in the perfection of God, I mean it in an almost stupid way: "What is the current idea of God? Can I alter it slightly to make it superior in some way? Then the first one must have been wrong, because nothing imaginable can be better than God."

 

Mike, your really smart. I haven't had a good discussion with someone about god and stuff for a while without it getting out of hand. I just wanted to say thanks.

Don't we all hope to say those words at the end of life? But truly, so few do....

He wants our respect, an odd combination of fear and love. He didn't want to be alone obviously, thats why he created souls. But some of them fell away from him, they made the wrong descisions in the beginning, and now must suffer damnation. He wants them back though, thats were the "loving god" comes in. I don't believe in a Hippy god like Jesus, I believe in a righteous god. Its not imperfection to seek love. Its a desire. Desire isn't a sin unless you desire negatively, or do something to get what you want. Greed is a sin. I believe that God desires his lost sons and daughters.

U c, whether you realize it or not you've been "tricked" Mike. Theres this liberal view that, "oh, we can't acess somethings, there beyond our reach, and our brain's compacity of knowledge", or something like that bullshit. Then theres the Christian trinity type of thing, that gods perfect, and because we're not perfect we can't ever understand him because he IS PERFECT. wtf? Laziness, quitterz, or maybe not necessarily that, but just flat out stupidity by being fooled. God WANTS US TO UNDERSTAND HIM!!! He wants us to strive for pefection. It doesn't matter how far you get, it matters by how hard you try. And sometimes people figure it all out. They obtain the forbidden knowledge, and then they can live there last "life" fully.

Might sound crazy, but I think were stearing towards the "conspiritorial truth", were what is theologically known, and what actually can be seen and scientifically proven conflict over the truth, but the truth remains in theory and theology.

Its true, becasue they're refering to another statement that is false. That kind of trickery tries to confuzzle people, but it never works. Logic "cracks" it.

I woke up yesterday, I took my dogs out in the fucking freezing snow, and I ate a bowl of Reeses puffs. I took a shower, it was cold because we have well water at my house, and I went to school. I saw my girl friend, hugged her, hung out with friends till the bell rang, and was late to class because I have to walk my girl to class ever morning. My first hour teachers cool about it. I had a good day at school, and I hang out with my girl friend after school. Went home on 4:10 bus, and when I got home I went on the computer. Then I ate dinner, and I watched that Nicci Vujcilic DVD (he's a guy with no arms and no legs, very inspiring.).Then I went to bed.
THATS HOW I KNOW I EXISTED YESTERDAY!!!!!!!
Through my memory.

That depends on a metter of stubborness. If one of us says the "right thing", its possible to "persuade" the others opinion. Possible......

Thats just a failure of reasoning if I understand you correctly. To change your image of god means for you, and only your view, not to change god for everyone else around you. We all have a different view on god.

 

You just let it get out of hand...if you're going to present actual arguments, I'll respond. If you're just going to sit there and say "You're wrong, you're an idiot and you've been tricked because you're foolish" well...then you and your theologies' credibility go down the poop chute.

It was a good discussion...then you took it to a personal level in that last post.



There are two points I will respond to...the first is the one you've bolded:

What if we were created today, with memories of yesterday (etc.) merely implanted? The fact that you remember it proves nothing; What does a skitsophrenic remember? They (may) remember external projections of a mental illness. To us, figments of their imagination, to them, memories of a reality.

Your assumption that your memories are legitimate is exactly that, an (unprovable) assumption. You are assuming first and foremost that you exist, and that your mind is in pristine mental condition...this is a highly nontrivial assumption.

All you've proved is that your memories have deceived you into thinking you know for certain you exist...when infact, you can't prove such a thing.


The second is your dismissal of Russell's Paradox. "This statement (which is currently being read) is false."

Here's another flawed 'system' :

The sentence below this one is false,
The sentence above this one is true.

If you don't like the english version, I'll make the mathematical, set theoretic comparison that is concrete (and shows you the flaw in logic). This only has one interpretation:


Let A = {all sets which are not elements of themselves}

Is A an element of A?

If yes: Then A satisfies the criterion required to be in A...that is, it is a set which is not an element of itself (contradiction)

If no: Then A must lie in the complement of the sets which are not elements of themselves. That is, it must be an element of itself. (contradiction)


No matter how you look at it, twisting the english or not, there is a fundamental flaw in our logic.

 

Holy shit, and you expect me to take you seriously NOW? Get your head out of the clouds little boy.

By the way, I have no buttons to press...I was merely pointing out that you've succumbed to an ad hominem argument, which pretty much discredits your stance.

I'm sorry if they're above your mind set...which they clearly are, since you can't follow a simple logical argument (not even one of them).

This shows your inability to read...there is ONE system. The sentences go as a pair. If the first one is true, then the second one being false would imply that the first one was also false...which is contrary to the assumption of it being true.


Hey man, if you want to argue with Russell's paradox there are thousands of logicians with PhD's you'd have to go against...Russell's Paradox exposed a flaw in logic that has completely rebuilt mathematics in the early 1900s:

Russell's paradox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


As for your theories, they're arrogant and flat out wrong. "God is simple enough for me to grasp. I EM GENYOOS"

EDIT:

Notice that this is exactly what you're doing with that very sentence. "Oh don't feed me that crap, we exist." Foolish? Hell yes...here's more proof:

EXHIBIT A:

EXHIBIT B:

EXHIBIT C:

All mean one thing: "you're wrong, and my opinion is better than yours." So Mythril Roxas, who did take the cookies?

EDIT: On a slightly more serious note, you should seriously, SERIOUSLY, re-evaluate your perception of what truth is, and what a 'proof' entails. Not only is it fundamental to the theory you're proposing, but also, until you do, you're arguing against philosophy and logic with stupidity.

Can an insane person ever prove their own sanity? In their own twisted universe, yes...note that a skitsophrenic could also knock on their head, add 2 and 2, and various other things you may do to convince yourself you're sane. The only reason a skitsophrenic knows they have a mental disorder is because someone else has told them their hallucinations are not real. In other words, all you've proven is that YOU think you're sane.

Feel free to respond, I won't read it...I've got you on "Ignore." You've demonstrated that your posts aren't credible enough for me to critically analyze my own beliefs against. You said so yourself, it's all about knowledge...so why would I listen to the least knowledgable source?

 

Wow, seems mike has really 'Owned that noob' .

Anyway,



I want to see peoples reaction to the 'concept' of science and the proof that some of the Bible is wrong / not to be taken litterally.

 

Sorry for double post.

How is that fact, that is called belief, you are just trusting someones word.

I died once, went to heaven and saw Allah. He said all Christians are wrong and gave me a second chance to warn you all.

 

But everyone that has had these experiences say the same thing. They can't all be lying. What reason would they have to lie. Fact is there is most likely life after death, and there is most likely a divine being.