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Fandom vs Reboots

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Derek, Apr 12, 2017.

  1. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member


    Before you post that reply just from reading the title let me explain. This isn’t me trying to argue the series should be rebooted. It’s what I hope will be more of a discussion, one I think could be more interesting if people told why they want one or the other.

    It’s been growing over the years but that undertone of a reboot gets more voiced with KH3 on the horizon. And generally you can sum up who’s on which side based if your first reaction to the idea is;

    “Why? It doesn’t need it.” or “That’d invalidate *insert years* of my life!”

    Personally, being in the fandom as long as I have (since 2002), I think this is due to at which point you entered the series. I dont think that accounts for everyone but I do believe it’s a factor of importance.

    The fandom can be elitist or toxic in some places but more than anything it’s fragmented. You don’t have fans of kingdom hearts so much as you have “fans of Days” or “fans of BBS” or “fans of the command deck” or “fans of Xion”, “fans of Roxas”, etc. It kinda just goes on.

    Many like the series as a whole sure, but anyone experienced in forums or echo chambers like tumblr know what I mean.


    But enough rambling. The core of this post is the idea of rebooting vs the fandoms hatred of the idea despite a voice for it having grown over time. I’m not gonna lie, this voice isn’t large, it’s just that ideas for it pop up more now than they used too.

    I’m also not gonna argue for a reboot or against. I want you, any readers, to do that. I’ll give my opinion to kick the things off though.

    Now let’s be honest. I mean let’s REEEEAAALLLYYYY be honest with ourselves on not just one front, but both.

    1) On the against side, the claim of invalidation is- well valid. A reboot would make years of time lost to lots of people. It’d also probably irritate those who just joined and finally learned even a bit of what’s going on thanks to the PS4 remixes.

    2) On the for side, let’s be real now, the story ISSSSSSS overly convoluted. Just because you understand it yourself doesn’t mean it’s easily accessible or easily understood. This is something I learned after years of battling other fans on KHinsider before leaving.

    Nomura deserves credit for the KH series but that doesn’t make him, let alone this narrative, a flawless epic. Lots of actual lore is hidden in supplementary material and lots of “twists” or “surprises” that needless complicate the narrative are done because Nomura just likes to do so.

    Whether you want to accept it or not this IS an issue for any form of story. Supplementary material is supposed to strengthen a story, not be the pillar of it’s existence. And as George Lucas showed us, the director or mind behind the world shouldn’t have free reign, everyone needs someone else to balance.


    So, where do I stand on this? Honestly, after 15yrs I couldn’t care less. I no longer care about KH’s future. I still love KH1, I’m even reblogging lots of screenshots with facts because of how much I love the love put into it.

    Heck I even like to sit through KH2 now for nostalgia’s sake. I’ve been here since the beginning, I remember “Blond Haired kid” or “Kairi’s Pantsu” and I especially remember “Enigmatic Mage”.

    “But Derek! You’ve been here so long, why would you not care now?”

    Simple, it’s because, for me, all those years of dedication are already invalidated. A story that gets messier, sure I can handle that. Having to read other things to know lore, yes I can handle that to, I love lore of any kind. Heck I can even tolerate the elitist or darker sides of the fandom once upon a time.

    However I can’t handle what Dream Drop Distance introduced. I hated it for gameplay reasons yes, but storywise one line, one scene, destroyed my years of dedication. This one:

    I…I just don’t think people know how crucial that line is. It’s a throwaway line to many but to me that just completely invalidated everything up to this point.

    KH1? Ansem? No, Old Nort manipulating him. KH2? Xemnas? Nobodies? No, Old Nort using them. This was further hit home as people began returning in the story, Axel, Zexion, Lexeaus, Xigbar, they all just…came back.

    It just made my years of following feel weightless. Ansem & Xemnas instantly lost all intrigue, they’re now (and always were I guess) this mans puppet. The villains of KH2 were weak to begin with but now it felt entirely pointless, why are they more important as humans than when they were villains?
    Terra, Aqua and Ven? Their story was pointless, almost invalid. Then stories with little relevance before (Days, Coded) just added to the feeling that no game felt valid anymore.

    Worse yet, this was all due to an Aizen-level logic and planning. Having freshly come off the coattails of Bleachs mess it invalidated the story to me and did so mirroring one of the laziest troll villains I’ve come to hate in my lifetime.

    I stay now to see the fabled KH3 just so I can see if it actually releases, and honestly I’d say the storyline in the Chi games are the best since KH1 and I’d argue that should’ve been the next saga or rebooted story to this series.

    But these things are moot. I’m totally indifferent now. If it’s rebooted, neat, I’ll see how that goes. If it goes past Kh3, neat I’ll wait to see how that goes. But either way I don’t really have a hearts stake in it anymore.

    For many, the reboot idea would invalidate the story and years of time but for me that invalidation has already happened.
    So now I leave this to you. I’ve gave my opinion for frame, I’ve stated what I’d like to see so indulge me. Give me a discussion, why do you like the idea of a reboot? Why do you hate it? Why are you in-between?

    Let’s have a discussion like the days of old, if your newer then discuss and discover what it was like to talk in-depth about something like how you see older fans reminisce of the sociological/physiological talks stemmed from KH2 of all things.

    (OG tumblr ver: http://derekscorner.tumblr.com/post...https://s9e.github.io/iframe/tumblr.min.html#)
  2. Become

    Become Resident Tashian Staff Member Moderator Content Writer

    Maybe I'm just more ignorant to the ways of story writing than I give myself credit for, but I really don't see how anything that was revealed in that scene invalidates the series to such an extent that you're making it out to.

    I'll agree that, with what's been given, it totally devalues the Organization members. Their unique quirks, the potential for a lot of backstories and such, all given up in favor of making them pawns in their own game is kind of a let down.

    Although, based on the events of BBS, it's not like we're getting this completely out of the blue. I mean, we all knew from there that Master Xehanort was responsible for Ansem Seeker of Darkness from KH1, and, by extension, Xemnas. It just strikes me as, albeit abrupt, a reasonable revelation that the guy that caused so much trouble in the prequel has had more of a hand at the table than initially thought.
  3. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    But what about your views on a reboots? That example was just mine on it to get it going, not the topic itself.

    I'll still answer since ya asked though;
    It invalidates it because it took so much away. Ansem & Xemnas lost any individuality they had, KH2 felt even more pointless than it was before and then BBS' end didn't even hinder Xehanort because this was part of his "big master plan" to begin with thanks to the mcguffin that is time travel.
    If TAVs sacrifice didn't even hinder Xehanort, then their sacrifice had little meaning which combined with the hollow characterizations of them damaged it more to me. KH2 was shaky writing wise anyway even if fun, but villains from 2 are now more important now then they were as villains. Half of them came back as well which made me question what the point of KH2 even was. Then KH1 felt just random, if he was just finding 7 pure lights then why was Ansem going through the trouble of destroying worlds and opening the Door to Darkness?

    Ansems goal now feels out of place or random because he basically already achieved the goal Old Nort gave him, finding 7 pure lights. What even was the point of the rest of the game after that? Then of course, games like Days or Coded (while I love Coded for reasons) that were more filler than relevant before just added to the stack of a story that felt moot.

    This coupled with my grievances with story directions taken, how conflicting games are vs Nomura and his quotes, and just what I consider dumb decisions for the sake of surprise over coherency destroyed why I would even care. What I spent years on was made moot, what was left were things I didn't care for, thus my years with the series were invalidated.

    I still love KH1 since I can just play it and ignore everything else but that's about all. Granted I know why some things happened, lots of it was a story not full thought out from beginning to end because KH1 wasn't even a sure title to succeed. Then Nintendo and Disney caused more than one game not originally in plan. But the damage is done for me personally.
  4. Become

    Become Resident Tashian Staff Member Moderator Content Writer

    My official stance on reboots is... well, neutral I guess. I haven't seen a whole lot in the way of 'official' reboots of franchises. Outside of the reboots that frequent the western comic book media (Marvel, DC, etc) they don't seem to have played much a role in my life in games, TV, books, or movies. I guess it all really depends on how well the reboot is set up/pulled off, which is something that can vary tremendously.

    As for addressing some of your points in response to me.
    1. The worthless sacrifice. Yeah. TAV's sacrifices were all, apparently, made in vain. But they DID address that in the cutscene above; so maybe that was kind of the point? That in spite of everything, there was still a loophole that MX could exploit and get what he wanted.
    2. Org Revival. I agree on that point. Though I could be swayed by a feasible explanation as to how they came back?
    3. Ansem SoD's Goal. I mean, he only sort of achieved the goal. He never actually got all seven Hearts because Kairi's was chilling inside of Sora the whole game. And when it was finally released, she and the other Princesses were set free... and. I actually don't know exactly where I'm going with that one; oops. But that also didn't all come to a head until the end of the game. You seem to be implying that the "rest of the game" was pointless after that, when the "rest of the game" at that point was just to go to the End of the World and defeat Ansem; because, you know, no one was really safe until Ansem was defeated.

    I just don't share in the sentiment that the games' stories are such a 'train wreck.' Overly complicated? Definitely. Messy? Probably. But it's not uncommon for plotlines to get messy along the way, especially when you're dealing with multiple titles all attached to and dependent on each other like that. Personally, I'm reserving my judgement of the story until KH3 is actually out to the world Perhaps the reason it's been taking so long is because there's more collaboration taking place to tie up the loose ends? Just me having faith in that department is all.
  5. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    Indifferent then, perhaps the second most interesting response I've gained so far. I usually see strong no's or yes but yours and the one I had of a "soft reboot" are the first in between responses. How a reboot is done does have a huge impact on the idea of it, like the tv and movies angles mentioned, those don't seem to be received well.

    Perhaps I should've did a topic on soft reboots instead....oh well.

    To answer your #2
    The explanation given was in DDD and originally in some director interviews way back during KH2 Final Mixes released in the 06-07 days. If a nobody is destroyed, and the heartless destroyed via a keyblade, a normal person will reform. There was always a reason but the way it was done didn't help the feeling of their revival as me and you both agree on.
    There also seems to be loopholes as well since Xehanort came back even though the thing that done Ansem in was Diz's machine exploding and turning Riku back to normal.

    As for #3, kinda a mix to argue. Xehanort only said Ansems job was to find the 7, not actually collect them. So by definition Ansem had fulfilled this role the moment he had identified 7 pure lights.
    Your also misinterpreting, it's not the "rest of the game" as in the final portions of it, but the entirety of it. Before, after and between. All Ansem really had to do was find all 7, in the Ansem Reports he knew/suspected Kairi was one and literally threw her into KH space which lead her to Destiny Islands. We see Robe ansem on those islands so he knew of her for at least a decade, this coupled with Aurora that Old Nort knew of plus the other 5 Maleficent found- eh now I'm rambling. Ya get the point. Basically, I don't understand why Ansem did his KH1 scheme when all he had to do was find 7 lights and was having Maleficent do so. His motives for the DtD and so on feel random because of it. KH1 makes you think he has personal motivations (whcih at the time he did I guess, series was made as it went) but DDD's alteration changed it to MX's reasons and we dont' get an explanation as to why MX would want the DtD open or heartless destroying worlds to make a false kingdom hearts.

    I'm not trying to argue your point, but since you seemed confused by mine I've tried to give an explanation. I'm probably not explaining well, I'll just leave it.

    It's perfectly valid if you think that way, if we talked about messiness it'd just go into a tangent because I think there's a difference between messy and a "train wreck" as you called it. That's another kinda thread though I believe.[/quote]
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2017
  6. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    Ha ha, I remember BHK. The series was full of possibilities then.

    I'm neutral on a reboot to KH. I care so little about this series now that I doubt I'd play any game they released, whether it was in the current canon or not. But I would guess a reboot would alienate more fans than it would gain back.
  7. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    lol Fun times wasn't it? Deep Dive as a whole was just so fun at the time.

    So like me then, although I'd try at least one to see how that goes. I wonder about that myself, lots of fans feel alienated as is but at the same time many don't. I'd almost be curious just by the fallout now.
    Kitty likes this.
  8. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    I think KH III will bring a lot of people back who are hanging around the fringes of the fandom. And if KH III goes over well, I don't think a reboot will be especially wanted. Now, if KH III is a failure with the fans, maybe talk of a reboot might gain more traction.
  9. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    Hmmm given how some fans are I'm not sure they'll ever consider any game a failure though your right. It'd be kinda sad if KH3 flops tbh. I have no expectations myself but the backlash wouldn't be pretty. It might even kill interest in a reboot tbh.
  10. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    That's true. Personally, I can't see KH III being a franchise killer, even if it might not be a perfect game.

    I know this is just talk, but I don't know that I see even talk of a reboot on the table any time soon. As long as these games still sell, I think they'll keep going with the series. Then, when every possible story line is exhausted and they've remade all of the games, and no one cares any more, they'll reboot it for a younger audience.
  11. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    haha Then that might be for some time to come. KH fans have proven to buy most anything. Not to mean it as a insult joke but the more dedicated ones do keep it afloat. Whether that's good or bad in some ways, idk but in this situation it might take time. Assuming they don't exhaust story options.
    There's only so many routes you can take a character or so many times you can clone one before even your most dedicated fan has had enough.
  12. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    Yeah, they can always keep repackaging games and releasing them for updated consoles. That seems to be working well for them so far.
    True, but it shouldn't have to be that way. As a universe, there's a lot of potential in KH. Just, IMO, the games sort of quit living up to it. *shrugs*
  13. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    I share that opinion personally. What hurts most is that could be completely flipped if there was just minor tweaks. You can literally alter minor things in each game that keeps the same outcome but has no clutter or other things bogging it down.

    I kinda wish there was games in AU's exploring that potential. We have time travel wrecking things so f*ck it, minds well add alternate universes too.
    Kitty likes this.
  14. Become

    Become Resident Tashian Staff Member Moderator Content Writer

    I honestly can't get behind much of the scrutiny that people put the series under; but then, that's also because:
    A) For a character designer, Nomura really isn't doing all that bad of a job at creating a story.
    1) I probably can't do much better anyways.

    The only thing that really stands to me as a glaring piece of BS is how a full Somebody can be reformed by their Nobody and Heartless being destroyed; that should mean complete destruction of said being. That's probably the first thing that I'd ever change.
  15. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    And that's fair. For his initial role, Nomura has done very well. What bothers lots of people will vary, the fanbase is fragmentary imo. However I'd say what bothers many is just the small things. There's a lot of things or plot points done because he likes to "surprise" when it hurts coherency. He doesn't let a surprise build up in a sense, just throws it in.
    As a result you have lots of things there just for the sake of being there rather than serving a plot purpose. Like Time Travel in KHDDD, many hate that despite how many make it more complicated than it actually is. The story already has the sub plot of replicas and all Xehanort is doing is creating 13 clones of himself anyway, in this light the time travel was needless since the replica program would've served that purpose in a far less convoluted way.

    Or like how there are two Ansems. It's one of the few true retcons in the story but one that doesn't seem all the full of...purpose. You could keep the master-student dynamic just being altering Diz's true name and keep the current KH2 story the same.
    Or especially the Nobody+Heartless thing me and you have been discussing. That's something else that seems to exist just to exist. It's been around as an idea in interviews for years, true, but the way it was used wasn't that good.

    Then there's what my friend calls the "midoclorian lore" that BBS introduced with the inheritance ceremony and "true master" titles. Those didn't really serve any purpose. All they did was give Terra reason to be a man to be manipulated as well as forcing some retroactive connection between Sora, Riku, Kairi, Aqua and Terra. Just these people meeting in passing would've been a strong scene for long times fans, this extra info served no purpose.
    Even Sora calls out the title and test system as a formality in DDD, and it only gets worse if you read into BBS' interviews. Like Terra performing the ceremony on Riku, in Nomura's mind, Terra never officially became a true master yet he did something only a master can do. According to him, only your teacher can deem you a true master so Xehanorts' words to Terra were lies yet through some BS of Terra having the power equal to a master he can do some of their feats.

    It defeats the purpose of his true master plot if someone powerful enough can just do those things regardless of actually having the title or not. Then that also brings up the question of how Yen Sid deemed Riku a master when only your teacher can give you that right. Riku and Sora have no real masters, they're self taught.

    Then there's the issue with Ventus. From a fans view, Sora wields because of Ven. From the interview view, Sora wields because he deemed himself worthy on his own when he literally stole Riku's kingdom key from him in Hollow Bastion. Up till then Sora gained it by accident and it was truly Riku's. All Ventus lets Sora, and by extension Roxas, do is dual wield.
    In this way, the fan interruption is honestly better and has more impact since it adds more value to Sora's connection to Ven than Nomuras' ideals do.

    THEN there's the whole BS that Xion or Data!Sora's keyblades are fake, which Days and Coded only skim over, despite at least Xions displaying the powers a keyblade normally has. Such as freeing hearts from heartless.


    I could literally go on and on, it's just lots of small things that I think bother people. I myself don't really care as much anymore since lots of what I care for already feels invalid now but for many, these kinds of things are annoying.

    Granted just ignoring Nomura's stances on them is fine, he did after all once claim that death doesn't really exist even though KH2's journals not only says it does exist but details HOW natural death takes place.
    Then there's KH2'd infamous mistranslations (which are hilarious solely for the Bleig in the journals haha).

    Things are beginning to muddle or contradict in places so it's understandable for some to get annoyed while others who only go by what they see in-game don't. The only people I don't excuse are those that just rant to rant without giving actual detailed reasons as to why something annoys them. (aka, things like "this sucks, just cause" or hating something because their "ship" didn't sail)

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