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Ambiguity

Discussion in 'General Kingdom Hearts' started by Derek, Dec 28, 2018.

  1. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    Ambiguity
    [​IMG]

    Originally posted by no13roxas

    Alright so it’s still on my mind. The end results of this discussion (link). TDLR as the kids say, the concepts of nobodies-gain-hearts and “walking heart” theories bother me.

    “If nobodies can gain hearts, why seek their old ones?” and “If a heart can construct a material vessel then what purpose does a body-soul combo serve?” are questions that plague my mind.

    For those not in the know, KH2 established that life as we know it in the series has three specific elements:

    Three elements combine to create a life: a heart, a soul, and a body.But what of the soul and body left behind when the heart is lost?

    When the soul leaves the body, its vessel, life gives way to death, but what about when the heart leaves?

    -Secret Ansem Report #4 (KH2)

    A body to give you shape, a soul to give it life and the heart to give yourself. Heartless and nobodies are born when the heart is striped from this equation. Actual death, as defined here, is caused when the soul is extinguished.

    [​IMG]
    Originally posted by no13roxas

    When I was younger the soul was a huge pet peeve of mine. People seem to give it more importance than it holds. Even well known channels like HMK confuse this, usually attributing it to the Lingering Will entity.

    I wont delve into that old tangent now because this got me thinking on another issue. For years I thought the story explains things that didn’t need it while leaving things that could use it ambiguous.

    This is just one of those moments, in hindsight you can see the heart-body-soul fact only exists to explain nobodies as an entity. They’re that living body which has lost it’s heart. The heart’s will was too strong to fade and thus the body clings to existence.

    [​IMG]
    Originally posted by wedontgivethatup

    The question that stems from this however is “was that explanation necessary?”

    Was it needed? In the long term it’s caused more nitpick questions or misunderstandings than it’s really helped. Which, in fairness, not many read these rules anyway and the ones that do all tend to see it in their own light. Such as the youtuber HMK.

    (I’m only using him specifically due to a vid I recently watched btw)(the wikis and forums tend to have just as many)

    [​IMG]
    Originally posted by alavazxela

    For example, aside the two question I offered earlier you can further ask:

    How do replicas like Xion or Repliku live? Did Vexen just manufacture a soul?

    Why does the body+soul of a nobody seek a heart endlessly while beings who’ve cast theirs aside have no such longing?
    The heartless are mindless, Vanitas wishes to be part of Vens heart and Sora never experienced an issue from being split from his normal body.

    How do we explain the souls in KH2′s Underworld?

    Is the mind and will truly tied to soul as many believe? If so then how come Sora held the entirety of both after Roxas was born? How come Ansem and Xemnas seemed to hold their own after Xehanort’s would’ve split between them?

    [​IMG]
    Originally posted by kingdomheartsgifs

    This brings other concepts into question. The mind as KH knows it seems to be separate from the heart yet born of it. Terra’s “mind” is inhabiting the armor, the “mind” of people persist in their nobodies, the “mind” of Sora and Ansem persisted with their hearts.

    Hell, Roxas and Xion developed their own minds. One being a artificial person and the other half of one.

    It just brings up a lot of questions for the concepts KH throws in. As my friend @blackosprey put it, these ideas feel more half realized than truly defined.

    It doesn’t even end at the metaphysics either. Time Travel, yes I’m going there, is another hilariously introduced concept.

    [​IMG]
    Originally posted by nokuto

    Xehanort establishes rules to it sure but he also contradicts them within that very sentence. Whether he recalls the memories or not, he admits they mold him into Master Xehanort. That’s the future altering the past.

    Yen Sid sends back Riku and Sora. People do point out they’ve filled some of Xehanort’s rules prior but that’s moot because they aren’t traveling on their own. It is Yen Sid sending them back and all we know is that his method required a past version be there.

    Hell, in Merlins first introduction in KH1 he bluntly tells you he time travels in his free time. Merlin, in his source movie and in this universe, canonically travels time as a recreational hobby. Then there’s the door to Timeless River.

    Then there’s the very scary implications of Maleficent time traveling alllll the way back to Chi just because some fake digital construct of her exists there.

    To Nomura’s credit, he’s not used this as an excuse to alter the game entries (yet) but it’s like each example just follows their own rules. Why have them if the rules are not followed?

    [​IMG]
    Originally posted by swallotail

    So, you’re probably wanting me to get to my point. My point is that the things we get explained or introduced to us tend to cause more logical leaps than they do solidify a set of rules.

    Yes exceptions exist, notably Ansem who retained his sapience for a decade, but this all ties back into the title. Ambiguity.

    Just imagine this with me, let’s say the heart-soul-body thing never existed. Let’s just say Yen Sid’s explanation in KH2 is all we got on them. How much does that change? In fact how many of those questions I ask vanish?

    KH1 makes it clear the hearts is an equivalent to what we’d consider a soul or mind. It’s clear there’s a physical body and a spiritual heart, if you only had these two and left it at that nothing changes.
    If anything it highlights even more how intrinsic the heart is. Every enemy in the game is based on the heart in some fashion.

    Heartless? Darkness of the heart, the more you have the greater the monster.
    Nobodies? That heart’s will, it’s desire to live. The stronger the will, the more human the nobody will appear.
    Vanitas and the Unversed? The literal darkness and emotions of Ventus.
    The Lingering Will? The mind according to Xehanort and Terra’s strong hatred according to Nomura.
    Replicas? Notorious for developing their own sense of self, their own hearts.

    [​IMG]
    Originally posted by nokuto

    Then ya got time travel. There’s so many alternate methods, on top of Xehanort contradicting himself, that any such statements minds well be moot. All you had to do was establish that Xehanort is unable to alter past events.

    Of course, introducing this concept at all was poorly received and may have been best left out as opposed to being left ambiguous. Merlin can’t be altered since he has that power in his source material but as supporting cast it wasn’t an issue.

    Instead of moments like this we could’ve used that time on things that could use explaining. Like why did the Ventus-Vanitas fusion produce an Xblade if it’s wrong in method?

    Why do keyblades exist in the Dark Realm? Can any wielder gain one by going there? Why did only Mickey acquire one? (yes I consider these of needing answers since they felt the need to make 0.2)

    [​IMG]
    Originally posted by kurtzisa

    Or heck, the best focus would’ve been on characters. They’re in need of it the most, they need the explanation, not the ambiguity. *coughneglectcough*

    Anyway, I hope I’ve explained myself well. I feel into tangents here and there but it’s simple. Do you, as fellow fans, feel there’s things that was better left unstated? Do you prefer the mental gymnastics of trying to overlook them?

    What things do you feel needed explaining and what do you feel needed less? Lemme know.

    Edit:
    I just remembered another one, data. I felt Tron was ok in KH2 but the recent titles seem to have taken great liberty with it. Especially the headache of explaining DDD’s Tron world.
     
    Kitty likes this.
  2. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    I can't speak on all your examples, but I will say that in general, I think some ambiguity is a good thing. Sometimes a simple explanation works best, and 'A wizard did it!" can still address the issue without introducing a lot of potentially confusing or plothole-inducing science/magic babble. I think this frees up the story to focus on character development and moving the plot forward. It also allows fans to use their imaginations.

    What needed more explanation? The characters and their relationships, honestly. Kairi in particular, at least through KH II, had very little development in my opinion, and I still hold that Sora cared more for and had way more chemistry with Riku, an unintentional side effect of Kairi's lack of character. I also would like more time spent on making all of the Disney worlds and characters relevant to the main story arc. I didn't feel like that was always the case. If shit's not relevant, I think it should be cut.

    With regards to your specific examples, I've not played the games so I don't know if experiencing the story would make a difference in how I understand it, but the idea that nobodies regrow their hearts sounds downright idiotic. But I don't feel qualified to speak on it much, because some of the questions this brings up to me might be answered if I bothered to play the later games.

    I've not experienced the games featuring time travel, but in general I think it's best not to over-explain it and try to limit its use as much as possible so as not to screw up the continuity of the story (unless that's the intention).

    I thought the data usage was fine in KH II. Relying on it as a crutch to resurrect lost characters or as a deus ex machina seems like a bad idea to me (lazy writing); I don't know if that's what's going on or will go on.

    (I found some dude on Youtube who's uploaded all of the story cutscenes from the all of the games in chronological order. It's like 100 hours of video so I dunno if I'll make it through, but I'm gonna try and get caught up on this shit.)
     
    Derek likes this.
  3. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    Ambiguity is crucial I feel, it lets your mind wander about the world your in. It's why many writers, such as Tolkien, would usually build lore or legends by having the characters speak of them as such.
    It was a mystery to the reader as much as the cast. If something is explained to a T then it's just a series of events, no magic as it were.

    In this case, the things focused on (usually in journals or interivews) just makes headaches. Its why the series is viewed as convoluted when it's more jumbled and poorly explored. if you read such things anyway, those that just go by what they play probably have a vastly funner time.

    On the Kairi part in particular, I've always found it odd. Half the games portray how deep that bond should be (like the heartless part) but the other half give that Riku vibe. In the Riku ones, it's usually told to you how special she is.
    It's poorly shown or told instead of developed through her which is sad. CoM and Days in particular have Namine and Riku point it out. There's this whole spot in Days where Riku says she's special to Sora and (if memory serves) Xion's real face looks like that since it's Sora's strongest memory.

    And, before another reader takes this towards shipping, it's not what I mean. I just think it's an example of this issue, kairi's importance is barely explored or just told. You dont see it on the scale of other friends like Riku, Donald or Goofy.

    KH is better understood if played but I can explain some examples. Like time travel, this scene here is where Xehanort mentions his rules:



    Minutes 16:39 through 17:10
    Time Travel is supposed to wipe the memory of anyone who's returning to a past point. Xehanort says it does but they're still "etched", unconscious as it were, and they guide him. Aka his future is altering his past. A contradiction, which is typical of time travel but the fact he's making his future breaks a key rule he states.

    He explains it again to Riku in another scene but essentially he's supposed to be unable to alter history or time yet his actions are creating the very loop or "fate" he says he can't alter.



    Like stated here starting at minute 2.
    The other examples are unknown ones. Like Yen Sid, he sends Riku and Sora into the past and the only rule his method seems to have is requiring a version of someone there.

    This is broken entirely by the implication of Maleficent going into the era of the mobile Chi game. The only version of her in that era was some false construct yet she still got there because there was a Maleficent present.
    Xehanort is also using time travel to have past versions of himself affect the present which isn't breaking any rules offered but it's annoys me by association. (ansem, xemnas, young xehanort, and possibly Terra nort and Vanitas)

    And this is just the magic babble of time travel so far. I do give Nomura credit for using novikov rules though.

    And yeah I agree wholeheartedly on the Nobodies thing. DDD tries to rectify this by pointing out Xemnas lied to the nobodies but it's not the best thing.

    I dont know for sure either but it's being offered as the excuse for all the heartless and worlds in Chi since those things shouldn't exist yet. Maleficent traveled to there because a fake her exists in that time.
    It could potentially be very lazy though. It'd be like Kairi hugging Sora back into a human except less of a singular moment or unique a circumstance. I loved KH2 Tron as well.

    Sadly a lot of the stuff isn't in scene. It'll be in reports and interviews, the scenes will really help. Just be wary some things wont be as stated. Like some interviews that I can remember (stopped reading them around DDD) were nobodies dont age. The in-game reports kind of put Xehanort's motivations everywhere as well and 0.2 will sour your taste of KH1's ending as well as Blank Points. meh

    Also, never expect Sora's human form between KH1 Hollow Bastion and KH2's opening to be explained. (nor Namine)
     
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  4. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    I find it funny to see Tolkien described as "ambiguous" after reading pages upon pages of him describing every minute detail of trees, but I get your meaning and agree.

    I've always thought Sora and Kairi's relationship (platonic or romantic) has been told rather than shown. I feel totally unconnected to them as a pairing. I don't buy for a second that Kairi is Sora's strongest memory. *shrugs*

    I watched both those clips and don't think I have a clue what's going on, ha ha! Time travel in general seems like an unnecessary addition to the story- they don't have enough Xehanorts screwing around in the present, so they have to bring in some from the past and/or future? Meh. Maybe I'd like it better in context.

    I think I'm kind of fine not understanding this story anymore, to be honest. It allows my love of the original to remain pure.
     
  5. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    lol I like to think of it like this, Tolkien detailed where it needed to be or where it was harmless. The trees characters are seeing? Sure. Legends they wouldn't have been there to see? Hearsay.

    Ehhhh then I'll put it another way, that stuff you're shown in the first three titles? Yeah it severely drops off from there showing you even less of Kairi. She losses what screen time she had. I know how ya feel, I find it hard to believe any of the original character dynamics but damn if I dont believe in the bond of Sora, Donald and Goofy.

    lol What's basically going on is Xehanort is delivering some exposition when all he has to say is "I'm from the past, I can't alter history, we're here to make you [sora] a Xehanort." They're Xehanort's from the past...well so far.

    Can't blame you, I spent a year learning how to emulate so I could put the first three on PC. Dropping all of this after 3 unless something shifts hard.
     
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  6. Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    I'm gonna start this by saying that I'm a sucker for showing lore and whatnot. Like with Legend of Korra showing how the Avatar cycle was created, loved that. Honestly it might not be too much of a stretch to say that sometimes I would prefer to understand the actual events of a story's myth over seeing the actual events of the series.

    To answer the first one, I think it was implied that only Xemnas knew that a body would eventually create a new heart. Also I think it goes something like when a Nobody is created, the body has a goal to regain its lost heart. If it doesn't complete that goal within a certain time, it will instead create a new one. Or, the experiences the body goes through simply causes a new heart to form.

    Also, and this might fall into fanon, but I think that the Organization cloaks, which are made to protect the wearer from darkness, are somehow able to hold back the creation of a new heart.

    I can't really answer your other questions, so I'm gonna just jump to one part that caught my eye.

    I cannot speak for The Sword in the Stone since it has been ages since I last saw it, but when I first read this thread (I creep around the site on my phone, so even though I don't actually log on very often, I do check this site more often than I appear to), I looked for the cutscene where Sora first meets Merlin (I would have played it, but my PS3 controller doesn't seem to want to work anymore and I'm too lazy to replace it right now). In the scene, all Merlin says is something along the lines of "in his free time he travels." When I saw the scene, I saw nothing that indicated he time traveled.

    So, I finally watched the actual scene in Chi where this happens. And it got me thinking. Some mysterious person explained that the MoM knew Maleficent would time travel, so he set up the data worlds to go through a distinct and defined... script, in a manner of speaking. That the digital worlds were set up as a trap to keep Maleficent stuck somewhere she would be unable to influence with her knowledge of the future. So I'm thinking its possible that Maleficent didn't time travel through her digital version (Unless the person said that's how she did it and I just forgot), but she was actually alive at that time. Which would mean either Disney characters are immortal or the events of Chi aren't as far back in the timeline as we think they are. I really don't want that second option to be the case though, cuz it really doesn't make sense.

    I remember once reading a comment that was arguing that Sora and Kairi's relationship (In the lens of them being in love with each other) is very obviously them being in love with each other from a Japanese perspective that the West simply doesn't have. Specifically that love relationships in older Japanese literature is much more subtle than modern romance stories you can find here in the West (Or hell, even the stereotypical shoujo manga. Then again, those are stereotypical about being love stories so the romance is the main focus). With respect to your Disney comment, I agree 100%. It's one of the things that I feel makes KH1 better from a story perspective. The Disney worlds feel much more important to the overall story. At the very least, Sora seems to grow more from his experiences in each world in KH1 compared to KH2.

    Yeah, Everglow's video series is really helpful. He actually went above and beyond just showing the cutscenes. I know he did a bunch of editing, such as changing the music in some scenes or adding some effects to help better explain things. I watched the videos that covered the scenes from the cellphone game since I have no intention of playing that one and I've beaten all the other games multiple times (Except Days and Coded, but I did watch their video collections in the remixes). I did hear that he probably focused too much on the Days scenes and rushed through the KH2 scenes though.

    This could also be carrying an implication that fate is immutable and these things were going to happen no matter what. After all, this very idea of fate being set in stone is a cornerstone of the events of Chi. At least, that's what the series wants to imply. The MoM saying that the Keyblade War could not be prevented implies fate is set in stone, and yet the MoM gives each of the Foretellers roles that essentially guarantee events are going to happen as they did. Which gives me 3 different conclusions to draw from. 1, fate is set in stone and nothing can be done to change it. 2, the MoM manipulated events to go the way he foresaw in order to fulfill some potentially evil plot. 3, the MoM saw the future, tried to change it, and the events of Chi are basically him setting up the Golden Ending because any variation would result in a worse future.

    I know there was a Nomura interview where he said the only time travelers are Ansem SoD, Xemnas, and Young Xehanort. Vanitas was very specifically revived through currently unknown means.

    Obviously I can't speak for the interviews, but Everglow did include the reports in his KH timeline videos.

    Honestly I feel the series is easy enough to stick with as long as you just roll with whatever crazy idea Nomura comes up with next. "Time Travel? That's dumb but okay. What happens next?" That kind of thought process.
     
  7. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    I can't speak for The Sword in the Stone either, as it's also been a while since I've seen it, but generally in Arthurian legend, time is kind of wonky around Merlin. He lives his life backwards through time, and as such has knowledge of the future. But I don't know that he necessarily manipulates time and I don't remember there being evidence of that in KH, except, I suppose, the Timeless River stuff.

    An interesting thought, and something I hadn't taken into consideration.

    I watched a few and then ended up finding a shorter summary of the series to get an overview. But the videos were really well done and I may go back to them at some point.

    Lol. I don't think I would have questions if I had actually played all of the games. It's just reading through these threads sometimes, I get a little baffled and some of it sounds a little ridiculous. But I'm pretty good at turning my brain off and enjoying, usually.
     
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  8. Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    That's the thing about KH. Given that there are essentially 9 games in the series as of KH3, it can be imposing for anybody new to jump into. Hell, I still question if the best way to explain the story is chronologically or by explaining the stories by game release. Even then, the story is honestly easy enough to follow until DDD where they throw in time travel. And of course time travel in that game has to be explained in such as way so it doesn't contradict the 6 games that came before it. Honestly I feel that it is the time travel plot point alone that makes the KH story so damn confusing. Simply playing the other games (Probably in release order, not chronologically) should be enough to explain things. If somebody still has questions, then maybe find somebody who can explain it (Of course, I'm speaking pre-DDD)
     
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  9. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    I dont think lore is bad in of itself but there's lots of times shows tell instead of show- or another way to put it is I think stories lose something when you have nothing left to imagine.

    That's true, Sora points out he lied in DDD. I just dont like the idea in use.


    Right here:

    [​IMG]



    Hmmm....well if there's a key factor to remember it's that Maleficent is a fairy. Maybe she was around? That or the disney worlds just "reboot" each time the universe ends? Like a cycle?

    I could see that. It's no illusion that the Japanese are far more private than we are over here. Although I'm not one for the shipping side of fandom so that's about all I can add.

    He does! It was so beautiful in a small way! Sora's cheesy speech even reflected it in KH1. The whole lesson of friends in the heart or strength from that was things Tarzan and Hercules taught him specifically.

    I haven't seen them all but I wouldn't blame him if he did tbh. Kh2 is the tail end of Roxas life.


    I've tried but- eh I dunno. There's just some things I can't enjoy even with that due to things that's transpired on screen. I gave up on interviews quite some time ago though and while Xehanort's contradicting his own words his time travel is at least not altering events. So eh.

    Merlin is always tied to time in some fashion, the old movie nodded to this in the same capacity Aladdin had Genie making present day jokes or skits. It's never a major plot point in movie but it is something he can do at will.

    Merlin being a wizard with power over time is one reason they had Lea & Kairi train with his assistance I think.

    Which when you get down to it Yen Sid is also able to do something similar since he sent Sora & Riku back to KH1 and the spell "stop" is essentially warping time as well. Even Sora can use stop.
     
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  10. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    @Derek , don't have time to address most of your post yet, but just want to point out that I believe you are misinterpreting that screenshot of Merlin. He's saying that he's been spending his time visiting other places, in the same way he might have said "I spend much of my time writing Twilight fanfiction" or "I spend much of my time plotting revenge against the Disney executives who've sidelined my film." If you read that as "time travel" referring to the concept of moving through/manipulating time, the English doesn't even make sense.
     
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  11. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    Hmm fair point. I always read it as the other since Merlin can (in-movie) and that KH doesn't alter the disney lore much.
     
  12. Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    I mean, not everybody can just roll with it. I just find it as the path of least resistance since I want to still enjoy the series, which I admittedly still do. Even after finishing KH3.
     
  13. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    To my mind it's no the path of least resistance because the explanations Nomura offers tend to be more convoluted than the ones you can gather on your own.
     
  14. Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    My last reply I was going to bring up the term "Willing suspension of disbelief" but I could not remember it for the life of me. That's honestly what it boils down to in my mind. How much a person is willing to put up with even if it falls apart the moment they start to think seriously on it.
     
  15. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    I've reached the limit of mine. I prefer Author is dead at this stage. I consider anything out of game 2nd tier canon to just there until a game references it. I do try to keep note of gaming localization however since KH has had an issue with that before and it's fair to note what the Japanese version would have.

    It's just fair in my mind that some thins are lost on translation whether its a bad mess up or just difference in cultures.
     
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  16. Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    I brought up that point with Elfdemon in that one thread he made something some months back. I was arguing that maybe, just maybe, there was a translation error with Nobodies, cuz there are so many Nobodies that to me it makes more sense if a Nobody is formed when anybody loses their heart and not just those with a strong heart. That would account for large numbers of Nobodies and then the strong heart people can be limited down to those who became Nobodies but stayed looking human. But man would Elfdemon not give that thought even a second of consideration.

    I had thought about translation errors cuz at the time I had recently learned about some translation errors in Ocarina of Time and by that point I was already aware that Luxu and the MoM calling Xehanort's keyblade No Name in Back Cover was a translation error since in the Japanese version the MoM says the keyblade has no name.
     
  17. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    Yeahhhh it's best to walk away from his threads I've found. He regularly weaves his headcanons into his explanation posts too. Which some stuff is left vague but that's not a license for creative writing.
    Edit: Not to say I'm much better as seen in the last time me and them talked but I'm an issue for it in another facet and often remind myself of it if I talk lore too long. (luckily I dont keep up with it or care for lore enough to bother by this stage)

    Not just there, KH2 has several in-game errors as well. It's not uncommon for the series due to the sheer distance in the languages.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019
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