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Should the later titles have "fixed" KH2?

Discussion in 'General Kingdom Hearts' started by Derek, Dec 6, 2018.

  1. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

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    With the tumblr purge upon us, not sure if I’ll be here after it, minds well get one more fun talk off my chest. This is a topic from this discussion and this one. It’s a notion among many that later titles tackled and explained some stuff put forward in KH2.

    Seen as “fixing it” in terms or things introduced. Who is Xehanort? BBS. Why do nobodies act like they can feel? DDD. What was in the letter? Coded. What was Roxas story? Days.

    I ask because some like the changes or explanations brought in later titles while others hate the direction the writing took. While KH2 wasn’t the best in writing, many things added to explain it has felt as damaging in other ways.


    Personally, in retrospect, I feel these later titles focus on KH2 tied them down. Done more damage than good. KH2 wasn’t great in writing but it should’ve been left be and new titles focus more on what they could offer.

    Perhaps having a smaller focus on connecting everything. BBS was key due to Xehanort’s backstory and I feel it could’ve began a new narrative arc. Other titles like Days should’ve been one off story that explored the universe but held no future bearing.

    In case the links dont work: http://derekscorner.tumblr.com/post/180869577547/derekscorner-kirabook-derekscorner & http://derekscorner.tumblr.com/post/180869586407/derekscorner-its-whitetomorrow-themattress
     
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  2. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    Take this with a grain of salt from a "fan" who doesn't follow the series anymore:

    I think the writers tried too hard to make everything and everyone connected and I think KH II is the source of the problem. I hated what they did with the Ansem character in particular, and it really soured my opinion of the series, especially after multiple replays. I also think KH II was written with sequels in mind, whereas the first game felt more like a one-shot that got unexpectedly popular and as such felt like a complete story in a way KH II did not. Should the later titles have tried to "fix" KH II? My gut is to say no. I think if I were making the games, I would have used the spinoffs on other platforms to expand the world-building without necessarily expanding the main story. I don't think that everything needs attention- for instance, I was completely fine with the time we spent with Roxas and what we learned about him in KH II, I didn't need a whole game to show what it was like for him while he was in the Organization (or whatever Days is about, lol). I think that KH III should have been released ten years ago, but development got fucked by whatever was going on with the FF XIII spinoff that turned into XV. S-E/Disney wanted to continue making money off the franchise but was afraid people wouldn't buy the games if they weren't related to Sora and that's why fans got what they did.

    I might think on this further and come back to it. I'm not sure I said all I wanted to say on it.
     
  3. Become

    Become Resident Tashian Staff Member Moderator Content Writer

    I felt that KHII didn't open itself up to a whole lot of other games to follow until you got the post-credits scenes with TAV battling Master Xehanort. I honestly think that KHII stood to resolve Sora's journey in a way that KHI did not: KHI ended with SDG not back on their home worlds, still searching for King Mickey (and Riku). The ending of KHII saw everyone back where they came from; Donald and Goofy ultimately made it back to Disney Castle with Mickey; Sora returned to Destiny Islands with Kairi and Riku. I found the Nobodies to be a great way to expand the KH Universe as another byproduct beings succumbing to darkness.

    The letter at the end of KHII should have simply been a springboard into a KHIII. Though I really felt that KHII did a good enough job tying up all of its own loose ends. For all we knew, the letter could have just been a "thank you" from Mickey to SRK. It wasn't until that secret cutscene that things got opened up for anything more; I honestly thought, at the time, that said cutscene was relating to a KHIII, rather than BBS.

    Gonna stop typing now because I feel like I'm just rambling aimlessly.
     
  4. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    Grains are good though, I doubt I'll be one after Kh3 either. lol

    I agree with you tbh. I hated the Ansem bit since it was there just to be there I think. Even if they wanted the Xehanort angle they didn't need two Ansems. Days was supposed to be about Roxas but it's basically Xion's story lol. That's possible, in those links I ended up having to dig a little for the first time in years. I hate the lore as it is but the dev quotes were quite interesting, namely these:

    Which ya dont gotta read them, the tdlr of it is that Nintendo is the cause of Days, Disney the cause of Coded. So I wouldn't be surprised if Vs13/XV also played a role in what happened. From what I can tell, even CoM wasn't planned originally. Meaning KH2 was probably intended to wrap up KH1 and set up BBS since BBS is the only one I can find that wasn't caused by corporate. Even then, something in that cycle caused BBS to be shifted from PS2 to PSP sooooo

    That said, I think your initial point truly is the whole issue. Each title, even a concert, has been connected or made relevant. All these other titles weren't necessarily a problem until they were made relevant to the main plot when they should've just been stories within the universe. Neat to see but not necessary to know.

    Ya can dig though the links and see if there's any points ya wanna add if you want. I'd love to see more opinions.

    I dont think it's rambling, this is actually a very valid point. Kh2, despite writing, was the last time we had a ending that was both tied up and happy. When Kh2 ends you have two lingering myseries, Xehanort's amnesia and the BBS trailer. These were obviously there to set BBS up even if we didn't know it as a prequel then.

    It was a perfect place to leave Sora concluded and focus on something new with the BBS cast. Expand things even instead of trying to answer them. When you get down to it, whether we liked the Ansem bit or not, all BBS had to do was explain Xehanort. It ends with Terra becoming Xehanort and Ven becoming part of Sora, that left Aqua to start a new narrative arc on.
     
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  5. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    You make some good points and gave me some things to think about. It's true that KH II did have more closure to the story than KH I did. I too assumed that the ending of KH II with the letter was a lead up to KH III. It probably should have been.

    Like I said, I think that KH III should have been released ten + years ago, but it wasn't. And you can't let a series just sit like that for so long- you'd lose the fans and more importantly, lose a shit-ton of money. So now here we are. I know I was super disappointed back when BBS, Days, and the other one were first announced, because with them all being on different devices (which I didn't have), I knew I wouldn't be able to play them all. And then so much time went by with no news of KH III, and the other games just seemed more and more like cynical cash grabs. I thought the quote about how the first three spin offs were all created by orders of different corporate masters was pretty telling.

    I think I just didn't like the direction that KH II went with the story and the later games kind of had no choice but to go along with it. From my bit of knowledge of them, it seems like they chose to double down on the things I didn't like about KH II, so in that regard, I would have considered them "fixing" KH II by ignoring it and doing their own thing.

    LOL, I think I just repeated my last post. So good I had to say it twice.
     
  6. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    What saddened me most was the shift of BBS from PS2 to psp. That just further delayed things. I was very interested in BBS at least, well back then. No fan of how it turned out but eh.

    This just summed up all my years of rants so damn neatly.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
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  7. Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    Honestly that part never really bothered me, even looking back at it now. When I was younger it was one of those "What a twist" moments. Reflecting back on it now, I still don't see it as a bad thing. BUT, I will admit that the only reason I don't see it as a bad thing is due to the vagueness of it. They have yet to explain why Xehanort stole Ansem's name and honestly it is this lack of explanation that stops it from being such a bad twist. The second they do explain it and the reasoning is bad, then yeah it's a bad twist.

    I remember once reading years ago that this was the case. That KH1 was made without any intentions of having a sequel (And that the "Another Side, Another Story" secret video at the end was a case of "Slim chance we get a sequel, let's toss around some ideas for fun." Hell, I once heard that the original idea for Roxas was to be some kind of guardian for Sora instead of being his Nobody. Can't really verify that though.

    As for later titles fixing KH2, I would argue that they shouldn't do that and should instead work to build off what was already established and bring out new ideas. That being said, I don't think there were any attempts to "fix" KH2 until DDD. BBS was more of a prologue to the series ala the Prequel Trilogy and, if anything, was made to "fix" KH2. Days was simply a side story meant to show Roxas' year with the Organization + give some additional plot points to connect it to non KH2 titles and lay a few tracks for future titles to come back to plot wise. Coded was pure set up for future titles. Like, 2 tiny breadcrumbs of setup. DDD was, in my opinion, where things truly took off in the story's convoluted mess with it's introduction in one of the most complicated forms of time travel I've seen and it's various retcons of KH2.

    Exactly. That's one of the great things with KH2's ending. It is a good conclusion for those who want the story to end there, while at the same time acknowledging the potential for a new adventure in the future. Essentially KH2's ending is what I'm hoping KH3's ending will be. Provide a conclusion for those who want to get off the ride, include something to say Sora has a new adventure for those who want to continue the story.

    Honestly they didn't even need to remove Sora as protagonist. BBS sees Xehanort's plan fail, KH1 sees Xehanort's heartless' plan fail, KH2 sees Xehanort's nobody's plan fail. Had they left Xehanort there then all they needed to do was make this imaginary KH3 be a more lighthearted adventure that starts with them finding a newly saved Terra and then proceeding to save Ven and Aqua. Hell, BBS could have been the one to explain Xehanort's memories by simply removing that one scene of Braig showing the possibility that the amnesia was fake.

    Yeah, that's a big problem. You can't really let a series sit for so long. So, in a way, the spinoff titles were necessary if only to keep KH relevant. Which does go to show a rather large issue with Square in general. This issue is a much more recent thing, but honestly you could arguably point to this issue starting after KH2 and the fact they didn't just move straight to KH3. These days Square cannot manage game development properly. FFXIII took too long to come out and once it did, for whatever reason somebody at Square thought it was a good idea to retcon its ending and give it two sequels. From what I hear, FFXIV had such a terrible launch Square had to essentially burn it to the ground and start over again. FFXV... Well to call it a dumpster fire of a mess is putting it lightly.

    Originally planned to be a spinoff of FFXIII, a few years of development were suddenly scrapped as literally everything except for Noctis himself were tossed aside and replaced. Nomura gets removed from being the game's director and replaced with Tabata (I think). Everything that was made had to be redone cuz they decided to change the engine the game ran on. The game finally releases as FFXV, but the game itself is incomplete. There's an inconsequential 5 episode anime that goes over the past of the main cast. A major plot point of the game (Noctis' kingdom being invaded) is removed from the game and instead put in it's own movie (Kingsglaive I think is the name). In the game itself there are a lot of unanswered questions (Like seriously, just before the final boss you get Ifrit thrown at you with no explanation other than he doesn't like people like Shiva does) that instead gets left to DLC. Square releases a whole first wave of DLC, providing a chapter a piece for our 3 party members (Which one chapter I believe is basically a what-if story). And then a wave 2 of DLC is planned, including a chapter that would explain things for the main villain. Of course, this second wave of DLC is scrapped as Square looses $33 million and the game director (Again, pretty sure it was Tabata) resigns.
     
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  8. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    It gets worse when you take into account that Xehanort was only his apprentice a year. I dont really know why but that time frame bothers me more. Unless Leon's 9yrs statement in KH1 is retconned somewhere.

    I think the biggest issue for me though is that it was pointless or just there to be there. The idea of DiZ himself doesn't even bother me, just that Xehanort decided to steal someones name just cause?
    If DiZ/AnsemtheWise was named something like Solomon or some other smart/wise sounding name I wouldn't even care.

    The twist did begin the constant man-behind-the-man trope the series has overused. I think that annoys most more than anything.

    No no you're right! I can't remember if it was the Kh1 or KH2 sections but there was an interview on that. It can probably still be found on sites with those archived like khi or kh13.

    I should've found it and saved it. I have the other dev quotes saved due to a recent tumblr talk. They basically detail that CoM, Days, nor Coded were planned initially.

    You can make the argument that was part of the problem however. BBS was set up since KH2 so those other titles being so crucial wasn't too wise thanks to console spread. All DDD did was bluntly state things those titles hinted.
    DDD was a tipping point though. In one sentence young Xehanort both establishes his rules then contradicts them. Time travel wasn't even needed thanks to the concepts of "recompletion" or the replicas.

    Tbh I'm not confident in Nomura to do that. At least, not given the track record between KH2 to 3 and all the craziness thrown in UX.

    True. I just suggest it since you can also launch a new narrative arc with Aqua's Dark Realm adventure. Have her meet some new threat or the revived Xehanort there and emerging post KH2.

    That's the sad part, the spin offs aren't bad in of themselves. Any long running story will have that. Days only exists due to Nintendo, Coded is apparently Disney's fault according to Nomura, then you had the shift of BBS from PS2 to PSP done in house.
    All the branching titles had to do was tell a story in the larger universe, show us what happens when Sora's not around. Instead everything is relevant or heavily tied to Sora's journey, they've even made a mobile title and concert special relevant now. (granted, we dong know how much UX will be)

    I mean, it's definitely true SE can't manage worth a damn in recent years but I dont think it was their idea to make each game affect KH3. For example;

    All Days had to do was tell us Roxas' story, give the Org fans some insight. Show us how Roxas got from his birth to the personality we saw in KH2. Which you could argue they DID do that but it goes from spin-off to "KH3 relevant" when its decided Roxas or Xion needs to be saved or brought back.
    Could've just ended it with Xion letting Roxas defeat her due to her feelings. She's built on memory so what Roxas absorbs merges their personas, end the story before Kh2 begins. Perhaps the final scene after credits being Riku confronting Roxas. It's not like the org cared, they didn't want both but it was made clear they didn't care which of the two survived the experiment.

    Coded? It was perfect as it was in the DS version. It wasn't necessary at all. It didn't need a movie remake or extra scenes in the remixes. Many fans hated it's lack of connectivity (dont know why) but I think that was great. It's what a spin off should be.

    0.2? Just cut out any semblance of Aqua in the KH1 ending or meeting Mickey. It was a demo of sorts of Kh3, all we needed was a very brief adventure of Aqua. Adding what they did made many mad about the alterations to KH1's ending or Blank Points. (as well as many, many good jokes of Mickey leaving her there lmao)

    Chi/UX? That story was also perfect as it was. It's season one had a compelling original story that ends with no real ties to future installments. All it had to do was wrap up it's few plot points and continue being the mobile cash cow SE/Disney wants it to be.
    If anything, giving it a continuing, but slow, narrative that gets more connected to the main series ages it. It would've been more profitable to leave it something untethered, they could milk it forever with no real backlash. (aside business choices)(people seem mad over those a lot)

    DDD? Tbh this game only seems to exist to tie the rest together so if the rest had been avoided as "kh3 crucial" then it may not exist at all.

    BBS? It was always going to happen, that's clear. KH2 was setting BBS up and while it was dumb to shift it PSP they could've ported it later. It was always meant to be important, tell us about Xehanort. KH3 itself then could've just continued or concluded the BBS plot.

    CoM? I love this one's story but it was the first of the console spread and for old folks like me you saw more than one comment in early 2000s internet. "Who's Namine?" "why's Sora asleep?" and so on. This game is said to be due to fan demand but it may have been wiser to end it where it began.
    Stories the same, just end CoM with a shot of older Sora waking up on the road like how KH1 Sora wakes up when Marluxia leads him to the castle. At best, you'd just need to resolve namine better in the title or add a scene of it in the credits. Perhaps using Riku's side to resolve Namine.

    ^ With this method, KH2 could've started where KH1 ended. Sora would be shocked a year has gone by but that could be played off as comedic.
     
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