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Box Theory

Discussion in 'General Kingdom Hearts' started by Desert Warrior, Jun 22, 2018.

  1. Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    So a couple weeks ago I read a theory online about the contents of the box that Maleficent and the Organization are searching for. Y'know, the box the Master of Masters gave Luxu to carry around with him. This theory I read was actually really reasonable so I figured I'd share it with you guys.

    So, before I begin, this is the scene introducing this box. Fairly important for this theory.



    So, what do we know? We have a box whose contents are unknown, a promise to never open it, and 3-15 villains searching for the box depending on your interpretation of what it means to be part Xehanort.

    Now, because we know Maleficent and Pete are looking for it, the box is most likely connected to the Book of Prophecies. But how exactly? This theory is that the box is in fact connected to the realm of dreams or wherever it is the Dandelions are in during the events of Union X.

    So, as Union X shows, both Ventus and the complete person of Marluxia (Lauriam) were Dandelions. Somehow they both have ended up in the actual world. Perhaps they wound up in the world by somebody opening up the box and that the box itself is a way into the realm of dreams (Or wherever the Dandelions are).

    When I read this theory, the person who made it said that the Master of Masters said something like 'once something comes out it cannot be undone' or something. But since it isn't in the video I put up I can't say for sure without actually looking more. Assuming he did in fact say that though, it makes sense. The box would have been opened up once before, and out popped Ventus and Lauriam. This theory would also explain how Maleficent somehow managed to appear in the realm of dreams at the end of Union X.
     
  2. Angel

    Angel Lion Heart Staff Member Administrator

    As far as I know Maleficent isn't looking for the box but the book of prophecy. Inside the box is the Master of Masters heart.

    Here's why.
    [​IMG]

    The Master of Masters name is on the box.

    The Seven Deadly Sins were translated into the Latin of Western Christianity (largely due to the writings of John Cassian), thus becoming part of the Western tradition's spiritual pietas (or Catholic devotions), as follows: Wikipedia
    1. Gula (gluttony)
    2. Luxuria/Fornicatio (lust, fornication)
    3. Avaritia (avarice/greed)
    4. Superbia (pride, hubris)
    5. Invidia(envy)
    6. Ira (wrath)
    7. Acedia (sloth)
    All of the Foretellers' names correspond to a deadly sin. "Super" is the last one who's name is on the box. His heart is in the box because the title of the KHX Back Cover Video named Heart & Key. Literally, the Key being the Master and Masters and the heart is what's inside the box.

     
  3. Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    I'm aware that the common theory is that the box contains his heart. Truth be told though, your evidence for that is not all that much (Not to say that the evidence for mine is much more). His name being on the box could simply be him putting his name on his luggage (Extremely unlikely but whatever) or it could be him being misleading to anybody looking for the box. After all, technically speaking, he did mislead his other 5 apprentices in order to ensure events played out the way he saw with the Gazing Eye.

    Sure, it's the common theory and the most likely theory. I'm not talking about that though. I'm simply sharing another theory I read that personally I found to be fairly reasonable.

    Also, yes, Maleficent is looking for the box. Did you not see last year's Orchestra trailer? Jump to about the 50 second mark.

     
  4. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    Tbh I find claiming for certain that he box holds his heart is jumping the gun. At best the video title is a hint, there is no confirmations. That's bordering on Elfdemon's habit of claiming things to me. Not because it has no merit but because that title could mean a number of things. Perhaps the hearts of the unions are in there, something akin to a dream world or a digital grid. Perhaps the heart in the title refers to kingdom hearts or the hearts of wielders slain.

    It is true the names all correspond to sins but that also doesn't prove the heart thing. It does make a neat observation that the master is named for pride when pride is often seen as the first sin or the gateway to the rest.

    He's right though, Maleficent does ask for the box in one of the trailers. She and at least one nort (Luxord) have shown asking about a box. There may have been more but I haven't had much investment in KH3 until recently so I could be missing things.

    TDLR; I find it too soon to be confirming anything. I hope I worded it right, it's like both are something that could be possible to me. A title "heart&key" could mean a number of things. This is kh, anything can and most things do, have a heart.
     
  5. Angel

    Angel Lion Heart Staff Member Administrator

    Exactly, it's a theory that I either agree with or don't and I'm simply saying I don't and the alternative is much more likely. Nomura mentioned that a perceptive fan could figure out the contents of the box. A portal to the realm of dreams doesn't seem intuitive or makes sense to be connected to the Dandelions. Xehanort is looking for the box. It would make more sense that either its the Master of Masters heart or the X blade. Or both.

    It should of been implied that the contents of the box is uncertain and that I didn't state it as a fact or at least the context suggested it was subjective.

    In my experience, it's always a simple and usually the obvious theory that a fan has guessed. Someone had guessed Terra was Xehanort prior to BBS. Someone guessed Xion was a replica prior to Days. To read more into the title of the scene more than the obvious answer should be avoided.
     
  6. Derek

    Derek Well-Known Member

    It gave the impression it was treated as a fact to me, so I apologize if I misread. I wont say too much on it since I've had a problem with being misread online for years.

    I do think it's a moot point to talk about what's intuitive or likely though, KH has proven nothing if not that it's not that easy. It's always contrived to a degree. Like, it could be the MoM's heart but it could also be his entire being. It'd be counterintuitive to just put his heart in there with no means of having a body.

    It's true someone figured or at least half joked/theorized those two facts, hell the KH3 trailer makes it look like we all figured out data to a degree, but that's not to say everything will be so. Might be, might not be, I feel like I'm talking in circles now.

    I'm just gonna walk out of this one before I make it worse...I wont lie, it's hard for me to debate things these days. KH has lost me too greatly and whenever people talk about the box all I think of is that scene from Seven.

    [​IMG]
     
    Desert Warrior likes this.
  7. Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    So far it's just those two. The 3-15 comment was more of me poking fun at Xehanort's plan to have 13 Xehanorts make up The Organization. I mean, if they're all meant to be incarnations of Xehanort then It becomes a question as to whether or not each individual member still counts as a different person. So either it's Maleficent, Pete, and Xehanort looking for the box or it's Maleficent, Pete, and up to 13 different members of The Organization looking for the box.

    The more I think on it, honestly it doesn't make sense that the MoM's heart would be in the chest given that there's currently no legitimate reason for him to do so. At the very least this theory offers an explanation for two other plot threads (Ven and Marluxia ending up in the current time and Maleficent somehow entering the realm of dreams).

    I want to point out that what Nomura says should be taken with a grain of salt. After all this is the man who said he was surprised that the fans were surprised by Aqua becoming a Xehanort. In hindsight the clues were all there but it still came as a big surprise to most, if not all, of the fans.

    Yes it should have been implied and that is my bad for tossing all obvious context out of the window, but saying "Inside the box is the Master of Masters heart" is a very definitive statement and doesn't leave much in the air in terms of being subjective. The statement is worded in such a way that it comes off as you're stating a fact.

    Sometimes the result isn't the most obvious theory. Case in point being Aqua. In DDD Xehanort tells Mickey "But Sora and another on your list belong to me now." The obvious choice for who Xehanort is referring to is Terra. With the reveal that Aqua is now a Xehanort though, it's not so clear who Xehanort was referring to. Which is also why I've noticed a surge of people who are believing in the possibility that Terra has been freed from Xehanort's control. Which reminds me, with this new reveal I think I've got a fairly good guess as to who the 7 lights (And maybe even the 13 Xehanorts) are. But that's all just speculation.
     
  8. Angel

    Angel Lion Heart Staff Member Administrator

    Well his eye is in his Keyblade which gives him foresight, I doubt his heart locked in a chest would be a stretch.

    The portal thing makes no sense whatsoever. The dandelions travel to the "world of dreams" and I doubt it was through some box that Luxu has during this time. Assuming the Sleeping Worlds and the worlds that the Dandelions travel to are in fact the same place. There's no reason to think a box is the only way to travel to it.

    Odds are, Maleficent made it to the "Age of Fairy tales" through finding some connection between Jiminy's Journal and the Book of Prophecies. The whole timelessness of "Dreams" explains why Ven and Marluxia haven't aged. Those are much more plausible.

    Grain of salt. Why?

    Fallen to darkness and becoming Xehanort are two different things.

    Agreed that, that sentence alone would be seen as factual but just a few more words changes the context. "Inside the box is the Master of Masters heart. Here's why". Facts don't need to be explained.

    I actually thought the same thing when first seeing the trailer myself but someone on Twitter made a good point. She's not wearing an Organization XIII coat and she is completely shrouded in darkness during the trailer so she's most likely just corrupted by the darkness. She's been in the realm of darkness for 10+ years. It happened to Ansem the Wise and now it's happening to Aqua. Plus, a Square Enix representative mentioned that Aqua's state was due to the realm of darkness and Nomura mentioned that she had fallen to darkness. So yes, it's likely the obvious answer and generally is.
     
  9. Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    A book can contain an entire world inside of it and it doesn't make sense for a portal to be hidden in a box? I'll admit the theory is a bit of a stretch, all things considered, but there are more nonsensical things in the series than that.

    Oh, you know, the continuous retcons and unnecessary explanations and, as I said before, him thinking that the Aqua twist should have been expected by the majority of the fans and shouldn't have been the big surprise of that trailer.

    You are aware in this situation the obvious answer is that she became a Xehanort, right? She's got yellow eyes and her hair is turning white. As I recall, Nomura stated that yellow eyes are a sign of being possessed by Xehanort and not simply falling to the darkness. It's why literally every other character who has yellow eyes is part of the true Organization. Aqua not having one of the Organization coats doesn't actually mean anything on its own. In DDD Xehanort's heartless didn't have one till the end. Vanitas didn't have one (Though it is arguable whether or not Sora actually saw him there. I've seen plenty of claims he didn't). Depending on how soon after becoming Xehanort that scene occurs, Aqua might not have had the time to get one of those coats. Also her being a Xehanort doesn't contradict what Nomura and that representative said. Prolonged exposure to the Realm of Darkness clearly caused there to be enough darkness in her heart to enable Xehanort to take over with his.
     
  10. Angel

    Angel Lion Heart Staff Member Administrator

    Well a book containing an entire world was common knowledge since the first KH. A locked chest being a portal is not.

    Like?

    Frozen was supposed to be the big reveal if you hadn't seen the leaks. I honestly didn't know that there was so many people who followed the story to know who she was.

    Yellow eyes isn't Xehanort exclusive that for sure we know. I doubt Nomura stated yellow eyes indicates Xehanort possession. Aqua not having a coat actually hurts your argument that Master Xehanort was referring to Aqua instead of Terra. Xehanort had 12 of his Darknesses all wearing coats in Dream Drop Distance if Aqua was one of his Darknesses then she would have had one because she would have been sitting in one of the chairs with her hood on unless she's the "13th" Darkness as you claim. Either way, Xehanort wasn't referring to Aqua in DDD. Last Nomura and the Square Rep both litterally state that she has been corrupted and fallen to darkness not that she has been possessed by Xehanort. You're inferring something that clearly hasn't been stated. If she was a Xehanort why not say so. Either way, my point has literal verification while her being Xehanort does not.

     
  11. Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    Still not outside the realm of possibility. I mean after all, Pete unintentionally opened a door to the past and that essentially came out of nowhere.

    Retcons? Minor ones, like Re:CoM essentially retconning Lexaus' death. Big ones, like how Nomura retconned the reasons for Sora and Roxas being able to dual wield keyblades. Or how DDD retconned essentially the entire series. It retconned Xehanort's reason for becoming a heartless, it retconned the purpose of Organization XIII, it retconned the fact that now Nobodies can spontaneously grow a heart if they go without one long enough (Arguably Days retconned that but I'm tempted to argue that Roxas and anybody else who may have started to grow a heart were special cases), it retconned Lexaus' death in Re:CoM to essentially be a plot hole of sorts, it retconned how to form the X-Blade. Take your pick.

    Unnecessary explanations? I will forever refer to my favorite one; Nomura's explanation as to how Young Xehanort was able to still move inside Mickey's stopza spell and bring forth a keyblade. Oh, and there's a new one. Nomura has recently explained that the only members of The Organization who are actually time traveling are Young Xehanort, Xehanort's heartless, and Xemnas. On top of that, he has stated that Xigbar, Saix, Luxord, Larxene, and Marluxia became complete beings but Xehanort had again turned them into Nobodies.

    There's a surprisingly large number of people who still follow the game's story and enjoy it. Personally I like it and all, but I'm not taking it as seriously as some fans are.

    Name one character who has yellow eyes who isn't part Xehanort.

    As for what Nomura has stated I did manage to find this interview bit which, at the very least, has Nomura implying yellow eyes is a sign of a connection to Xehanort.

    Comparing the Organization members when they were human to when they were in the Organization, apart from Xehanort, only Isa and Braig have differently-shaped ears and differently-coloured eyes - why is this?

    It's a question of whether or not they're deeply connected to Xehanort. In Braig's case, comparing the scene where he's injured in his battle with Terra and flares up at Xehanort, his appearance afterwards changes, which hints that something happened with Xehanort in between.

    To further add onto the notion that yellow eyes is a sign of Xehanort possession we have 4 non Braig/Isa examples. Terra, Luxord, Larxene, and Marluxia all had different colored eyes before. Once each of them got Xehanort's heart their eyes turned yellow (I'm aware that in the first KH3 trailer he was shown, Marluxia did not have yellow eyes. In the Japanese version of the Pirates reveal trailer they fixed this and showed him with yellow eyes).

    Oh, and we can't forget the DDD scene where Xigbar states he's half Xehanort.


    The fact that the camera zooms up right to Xigbar's yellow eye is a means of showing that the yellow eye is a sign of being part Xehanort. If the yellow eye didn't mean that then they wouldn't zoom up to his eye and focus on it.

    But wait, there's more. I have to admit that these next two points are less evidence and more theory points, but whatever.

    In 0.2, during the fight against Phantom Aqua she has several quotes. One of them is "Only your heart is hollow enough to become a demon's." From what I've read, supposedly in the Japanese version that line can be translated to something along the lines of "Only your heart is empty enough to become a vessel." Given that I don't know Japanese I can't exactly confirm it, so take this with a grain of salt. Just one really big grain.

    Next point. Remember the trailer back on 2015 or whatever with Xehanort and Eraqus playing chess?


    There's a theory going around that this chess game foreshadows the events of KH3, with each piece representing the 13 darknesses and 7 lights. Which makes sense when you look at some of the pieces.

    [​IMG]

    On Xehanort's side piece 4 would logically correspond to Luxord give that the piece is a pair of dice and piece 6 is Vanitas' Void Gear keychain. Both characters have since been revealed to be part of the True Organization. Piece 5 possibly corresponds to Xehanort's heartless since it is shaped like the Guardian's head. On Eraqus' side piece 1 is obviously Sora's crown, piece 4 is obviously Mickey's head, and piece 2 is probably Riku due to it looking like the heartless symbol and the Way to Dawn keychain is the heartless symbol. People have stated that piece 3 on Eraqus' side is the keychain for Terra's keyblade and piece 7 is the keychain for Ven's keyblade. Early in the trailer, Xehanort takes one of Eraqus' pieces, but we don't see what piece it is. So the theory is that this bit foreshadows Xehanort taking Aqua away from the light side. Also later in the trailer Xehanort takes another piece, this one looking like the piece that probably represents Terra. But shortly after that, when Eraqus grabs the piece with Sora's crown, the piece that is in front of Eraqus' hand is also the piece that probably represents Terra.

    Her not having a coat doesn't really hurt my argument though. It's established in 0.2 and DDD that Xehanort is aware of Aqua being in the dark realm. His claim of "Sora and another" belong to him can still very much refer to Aqua. He knows where she is and he may very well have had her captured in the event that Sora was unable to become the 13th darkness. We are talking about the man who has backup plans for days. So if Sora is unable to become the 13th darkness, then Xehanort simply moves down the list to the next available candidate (i.e. Aqua).

    The honest truth of the matter is that odds are, when DDD came out Xehanort was referring to Terra. But as development of KH3 continued Nomura used the vagueness of Xehanort's statement to his advantage and switched it to Aqua. This isn't that farfetched of an idea given that Nomura has stated that when he develops games he has the end point in mind and then makes up the middle points along the way.

    I completely, 100% acknowledge that something is fishy with Nomura dancing around the question. It is very weird he doesn't flat out say "Aqua is one of the 13 darknesses." I'm suspecting that there's going to be some twist along the way to shake up our expectations with her. All I'm currently saying is that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then the current obvious thing is that Aqua has become a Xehanort.
     
  12. Angel

    Angel Lion Heart Staff Member Administrator

    Sure, but that doesn't really account for anything. Saying something is in the realm of possibilities doesn't give anything that was said any merit.

    Still what you're saying doesn't really mean anything. They've changed the current direction of the story, doesn't mean take whatever he says with a grain of salt. Some of these things you're mentioning is over 10+ years old. What he is saying now, is the literal direction of the story so you should be taking it quite literally.

    [​IMG]

    Rewatching the actual BBS gameplay trailer of this, they reneged his eyes changing colors, so there's no reason for me to doubt that Aqua is not a Xehanort anymore. Older videos aren't entirely relevant much either.

    Yeah, it does. It makes it that much more unlikely and points to Aqua being a recent acquisition of Xehanort not something he already had.
     
  13. Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    Which is what makes it a theory.

    The point was that you should take what Nomura says with a grain of salt because it is quite possible he will flip flop on what he's said before. Plus I did say that bit about how he admitted in an interview that his method of game development is he starts knowing the beginning and end and then literally makes up the middle as he goes along. I did say that earlier, right?


    This is example is incorrect on multiple levels. First, I did say name one character who has yellow eyes who isn't part Xehanort. You pick literally the first character Xehanort possesses. Second, this specific version of this scene is countered by the actual game itself. Terra gets his yellow eyes upon possession by Xehanort. Third, this bit was used before BBS came out to help support the theory that Xehanort would end up possessing Terra. Given these things, you can't legitimately say that this counts as an example of a yellow eyed character who isn't part Xehanort.

    So you grab a 2 second scene of the secret trailer in KH2FM in an attempt to show a yellow eyed character who isn't part Xehanort and that's okay but I show a 20 second scene that does almost everything except Xigbar directly saying "My yellow eye signifies I'm half Xehanort" and that somehow isn't entirely relevant? K. At this point I legitimately cannot tell if you're attempting to troll me or are being completely serious.

    Again, it is very possible he's had her in his possession without making her part Xehanort so he'd have a fall back plan in case Sora somehow didn't become his 13th darkness. Hell, given that Vanitas knows Ven's heart is within Sora I'm willing to bet that Xehanort knows this as well. Therefore Xehanort's statement of Sora and Another could very well be referring to Ven. Come to think about it, that does make his quote interesting in that it could very well refer to any member of the BBS trio.
     
  14. Angel

    Angel Lion Heart Staff Member Administrator

    Sure, but you do see that the statement is pointless since we both know it's a theory and anything is in the realm of possibilities.

    My point is, he is literally writing the story of Kingdom Hearts 3 as we speak. So current interviews should be taken literally.

    That's literally all writers.

    1. Sure. You did say that. This is prior Xehanort.
    2. Which I acknowledged
    3. Wasn't showing the image to give an example of what you asked for to begin with.
    There's a little paragraph below the image that says I agree with Aqua being possessed by Xehanort because I didn't know they changed the scene in-game.

    Seeing as the post KH3D scene shows Aqua is okay. I doubt it.
     
  15. Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    There it is. Y'know, a few days before you replied I had gone back and reread your post. That little paragraph of yours stuck out to me and I found it to be odd. Let me explain.

    Regardless of what you meant, what you said was that because they reneged Terra's eyes changing at that point you only solidified your stance on Aqua not being a Xehanort. I'll admit that I considered editing my post to bring this up but honestly I felt that I would just come off as being a jerk who was nitpicking incorrect grammar. That, and you may have meant what you said, that the changing of the scene only strengthened your stance on Aqua not being a Xehanort (Which doesn't make sense and hence my confusion).

    So, if my previous post had upset your or angered you or anything because my reply was based off of this confusion, I apologize.
     
  16. Angel

    Angel Lion Heart Staff Member Administrator

    There's nothing to be upset over. It's just a discussion.

    Okay, I see. Yeah I meant. There's no reason for me to doubt that Aqua is part Xehanort.
     
    Desert Warrior likes this.
  17. Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    I'm glad we're able to reach an understanding.
     

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