where you put the light when its dark.

No, it isn't highly likely they would be aware of all this ancient symbolism. How many people have you talked with who see the symbols and clues you do? Using this site as a miniature example, I can only assume the number of people who agree with you is incredibly small. Therefore, it is more likely that the game creators did not deliberately put in the symbolism that you see.

How could I challenge your pink hair harvest theory? Quite easily actually. I've explained it before. You yourself admit that you weren't aware before of any connection between cherry blossom symbolism and the harvest. What makes you think that a bunch of guys in modern day Japan who make a living by creating video games would be aware of the connection? I highly doubt that there is anybody at Square Enix who is as into these things as you are. Therefore, the most likely explanation is that the intent behind Marluxia's symbolism is what I have pointed out multiple times before. Regardless of where the symbolism originated from, nobody uses the original symbolism. They use the modern day symbolism.

Cherry blossom original symbolism - Connected to the harvest
Cherry blossom modern day symbolism - Death without consideration where the symbolism originated from

Actually Eraqus wasn't using the light for bad or evil in that example. He was putting his emotions aside and doing what would have needed to be done to prevent Xehanort's plan. Now, had everybody just stopped for a moment to talk things over, things probably would've gone differently. But Eraqus was not being evil or villainous at all during that part of the game. Or any part of the game for that matter.

While the events in that fairy tale aren't quite accurate, things have changed since then. Kingdom Hearts (again, the light) was quite literally swallowed by the darkness. It has been stated multiple times in games that came out after what Nomura had said about this.

And no, Riku does not literally or figuratively carry a sickle. I remember you talking about that before, so I went back to that post where you talked about Riku's Soul Eater being a sickle. First, the design. It is not designed like a sickle. The design is much more related to that of a bat wing or how people generally consider a demonic wing to look like. Case in point, Diablos from Final Fantasy 8.



See how similar Diablos' wing is to Riku's Soul Eater? That is the intention, to give Riku a demonic looking weapon.

Second, the name. You go off of etymology and make quite a stretch doing so. Unfortunately you're going off the wrong language. If you're going to try to prove a point that way, it would be better if you did it in the proper language. For your point to work you would have to go off of the etymology of the Japanese words for Soul Eater, not English.

I'm still not entirely sure why you're trying to connect a manga and a video game that are totally unrelated, and trying to connect them by stylistic choices made by two completely different people.

Moving away from the Riku/Soul Eater topic, I completely love how you have managed to contradict yourself. Curious? Let's see.

Just so I'm clear here, the contradiction has nothing to do with Kairi's grandmother's story. First you said Kingdom Hearts is darkness. Now you're saying that Kingdom Hearts is the light in the darkness. If you're going to change what you're saying because you've been proven wrong, that is fine. Though I would appreciate it if you at least admitted you were wrong about it in the first place.

Really? That one guy? You couldn't take 5 seconds to look for my name? I'm not sure if that's the most upsetting thing in this entire thread or not. Anyways, I know what I'm talking about. I have admitted that I wasn't aware of the connection between the two, but so have you. So until you provided evidence that they were connected, you didn't know what you were talking about either.

 

It's almost as if I haven't heard of a word that isn't used in common conversation. Dude, get over yourself and jump off that high horse. Seriously, we should not be continuing this conversation again and again when you keep on throwing in these little insults at all of us. I can't speak for everybody on this thread, but at the very least I have done my best to avoid insulting you.

Yes, I have heard the word esoteric before. Many, many times. It does not matter. You want to know why? Because these people, the game creators and story writers, are not part of any sort of secret society. And if they were, why the fuck would they waste their time putting all these sorts of ancient symbolism into a game initially created for teenagers?

Good for you. That is admirable. I feel as you made a leap with something that perhaps you shouldn't have, but you managed to learn from it anyways.

Well if you know where to look, then show how the ancient Phoenician language is connected to Japanese. Because as I said last post, you're trying to connect all these things with an English translation of a Japanese game.

They can be there without intentionally being there as you insist they are. I've gone over this point before.

This was completely unintentional on your part, but you're agreeing with something I previously said. My second post on the previous page talks about this concept. People taking inspiration from older stories to put into their old stories. The further and further you drift away from the original inspiration, the less likely you are to include aspects of that original inspiration. George Lucas was inspired by

Don't you think it would make more sense that the harvest is a symbol of death, not that death is a symbol of the harvest?

No, you don't have to elaborate on the game concepts. I know them perfectly well. What you do need to elaborate on is why you are contradicting yourself. You first said Kingdom Hearts is pure darkness. Then I corrected you and you started saying Kingdom Hearts is light. It cannot be both. Kingdom Hearts is not the deepest darkness. It is the light found in the deepest darkness. There is a difference.

Is that anything similar to subliminal messaging? I'm curious since subliminal messaging has been proven to be false.

Logically it would have its designed based on Riku's heart at the time he got it and as such be connected to his heart, though I don't think it really matters how Riku got possession of it or where it came from.

That's the problem though. There was no intention to add a sickle to the design of the weapon. That is why we are saying that you're reading too much into these things. Or are you going to tell me that the design of a demon wing has to do with the harvest as well because you can see a sickle shape in the wing?

No, you didn't know what you were talking about at first. You had a hunch and were right about it. But when you yourself admitted that you didn't know there was a connection at first, you admitted that you didn't know what you were talking about until you looked it up. Here's what you said:

Right there you admitted to not knowing what you were talking about at the time.

I didn't emphatically say anything. I said you were wrong because you're making assumptions about the people who worked on this game. Assumptions that are more likely to be wrong than they are to be right.

No, you aren't willing to listen to opinions. Though I suppose that is the wrong phrasing (And this next sentence is really just arguing semantics). What it seems to me is that you're willing to listen to opinions, but you are not willing to change your own based on these opinions.

Again, I do know what I'm talking about. You're just not listening. Just like you believe that we're not listening to you. Honestly, it is really funny watching you make an ass out of yourself by calling us narrow minded and yet refuse to change your own point of view. And the best part is that no matter how much we point it out, you're going to deny it. So pot, meet kettle.

I do appreciate seeing you say you were wrong about something. But then you just ruined it by reverting back to all stories being anthropomorphic stories of nature. I forget what fallacy that is, but you're resorting back to an argument that isn't really an argument.

Now that I've mentioned fallacies though, I might as well have some fun bringing up some examples and seeing you argue against them. Let's see, going back to my above paragraph, you jumping back to the "all stories are anthropomorphic stories of nature" sounds to be an existential fallacy. I'm not sure if that is the right one to use, but from a brief search it seems to be one that fits fairly well.

Next, the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. This one goes back to that whole taking inspiration thing from before. You're arguing that, because these ancient stories inspired later stories then these later stories are a retelling of the ancient stories.

I believe this next one, the etymological fallacy, fits as well. Personally I feel this fallacy fits with that whole thing about "Original symbolism" versus "Modern symbolism," but I'm not going to claim it being the proper or improper use of this fallacy.

Finally, kettle logic. This has been pointed out before. That all your arguments towards your claim are inconsistent and not really connected to each other.

Interesting you use a rather terrible version of Romeo and Juliet based on its stylistic choice of one scene. Tell me, does that scene occur during twilight in every rendition of Romeo and Juliet? Or does the script not specify a time of the day?

 

Wow. I think I actually evoked a somewhat angry reply.

No, you didn't address every point I brought up. You ignored some of them. As for the length, some of it was an attempt to continue the discussion. Though perhaps I should stop and let this conversation die down? I dunno.

To be fair, I admit that I was misinterpreting what you were saying when I kept on bringing this up. I thought we were still talking about the cherry blossoms. I didn't realize that you were bouncing back to your original argument. My bad.

I don't think either of these are on a macro or micro scale. Logically, it makes sense that the harvest would be a symbol of life and death. I mean, I suppose it could go either way. My initial thought towards it simply is that the harvest is a symbol of death and not death is a symbol of the harvest. But at that point I suppose it falls down to personal interpretation.

But it's not actually a paradox. Kingdom Hearts is the light found in the darkness. That does not make it both light and darkness. With regards to the actual Kingdom Hearts within the game, there is no duality or any sort of thing like that. It is light and only light. It is not darkness.

Well, that's all well and good, but that has nothing to do with being connected to the Japanese language. To begin with, none of the Japanese scripts (Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana) are alphabetic. Japanese writing is based off of Chinese writing, and there is evidence of humans and other pre-human species living in the Chinese area as far back as 10,000 BC. And given that the Phoenicians began existing around 3,200 BC or so, logically the Phoenician script has absolutely nothing to do with any Japanese script.

Yes, I'm aware of what caused the holy grail in Fate/Stay Night to become corrupted. Except Kingdom Hearts was never corrupted. And, assuming you're going to reply against this, being taken into the deepest darkness is not the same as being corrupted. Anyways, I don't think it was ever established to grant wishes. I mean, I suppose if somebody could use its power then maybe it could cause that person's wildest dreams to come true.

Almost makes this post of mine pointless, huh? But at the very least I did want to say how I misinterpreted what you were saying with that previous cherry blossom argument.

Well, at least this cements my understanding as to why we're never going to agree with each other. Based on this part and a previous comment you made, it appears to me as though you're thinking that all these story writers and directors and other people are all part of a secret society such as the Illuminati. Since you are working under that conclusion, there is absolutely nothing I can say that will change your opinion. But it does add another fallacy that you're working under.

It does matter when you're not working with the source material. You can't argue an adaptation to prove a point if that point was added in for artistic reasons. I mean, here's how I'm interpreting your Romeo & Juliet tidbit:

1) You start with claiming that most stories are anthropomorphic characters of aspects of nature.
2) Under this claim you argue that in Romeo and Juliet, Juliet is the sun.
3) Because Juliet is the sun, Romeo learns of her "death" at twilight.

Now, assuming that symbolism is all correct, that is perfectly valid. But if Shakespeare did not specify that scene to occur at twilight or if he specified it to occur at literally any time that isn't twilight, then it stands to reason that your symbolism is incorrect. If the time at which that scene occurs is not specified, then it falls under artistic choice. It may be their own symbolism at that point, but then that symbolism does not hold true for every other rendition or adaptation. That is why it matters if it is in the original material.

 

Understandable. Unfortunately I'm still seeing the symbolism between death and harvest as interchangeable. Both can represent the other. For the record, I'm not disagreeing with you on what they interpreted and symbolized with death and harvest. I'm just saying how I myself initially saw it when thinking about it.

I know you've mentioned what Nomura said. Hell, here's the interview in question.

Unfortunately I couldn't find when this interview occurred, only that it is written in one of the KH Ultimanias. Depending on when he said this, he may have since changed his mind. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened with KH.

Anyways, on to the main argument of this portion. I'm not sure why you keep on bringing up that the fairy tale isn't exactly what happened. When I talk about Kingdom Hearts being swallowed by the darkness, I'm not actually referring to the fairy tale. I'm referring to what Xehanort has said in the games. He's talked about people fighting over Kingdom Hearts and causing it to fall into darkness.

You're comparing Kingdom Hearts getting consumed by the darkness to the holy grail being corrupted by all of the world's evil. There is a distinct difference though. Kingdom Hearts wasn't corrupted. Being corrupted implies that Kingdom Hearts has some darkness. It doesn't. Kingdom Hearts itself is still light and only light. It has not been corrupted to be part darkness, it simply resides in the darkness. The grail, on the other hand, went from a wish granting source of magical energy to a source of malevolent energy due to absorbing Avenger who held all of the world's evils within him. That's corruption, when something actually changes and isn't what it once was.

The light bringing about darkness isn't a paradox. Or, I suppose, it is more correct to say that Kingdom Hearts wasn't the literal cause of darkness. People were. Because they fought over the light, darkness was created.

Well, connecting the words Phoenician and phonetic seems to be easy enough. Logically the word phonetic comes from the word Phoenician.
phonetic (adj.)
"representing vocal sounds," 1803, from Modern Latin phoneticus (1797), from Greek phonetikos "vocal," from phonetos "to be spoken, utterable," verbal adjective of phonein "to speak clearly, utter," from phone "sound, voice," from PIE root *bha- (2) "to speak, tell, say" (see fame (n.)).
So, looking at the etymology of the word phonetic, the word phonetic has absolutely nothing to do with the Phoenicians. In fact, based on this example, every spoken language relies on phonetics. More importantly, you kinda repeated my point about the Japanese language originating from Chinese languages and not having influence from the Phoenicians. Additionally, it makes more sense that the Japanese developed their own phonetic system instead of adopting one they may have experienced from the outside world. Like you said, a phonetic system is better than a pictorial one. So it seems like a natural evolution of human language and could very well occur without interference from a culture that already has their own.

It does matter though. You said that most all modern languages are based on the language of the ancient Phoenicians. Such a claim implies that the words of a language can be traced back to the Phoenician language. Simply adopting a phonetic system is most definitely not the same as a language being based off of the Phoenicians.

Really? 99.9%? Didn't want to give a generous estimate of 80 or so %? I'd give you that estimate. In fact, I'd give a much more generous estimate. I'd say about 43% or so of what I'm saying has been ignored or has fallen on deaf ears. I haven't let that stop me. At least not yet. But then again, given how set you are and that you won't budge, perhaps you should let this perceived 99.9% stop you.

 

Certainly. My skepticism lies in a claim that the Phoenicians are responsible for all phonetic languages. I simply doubt that the Phoenicians had any influence on the development of a phonetic Japanese language. Unfortunately given how incredibly different western and eastern languages are, there doesn't appear to be any source of influence between the two. Additionally I don't believe the Japanese people interacted with the outside world while the Phoenicians existed.

That is a reasonable assumption to make. Assuming it were true, then the game is contradicting itself. Given how often it has been stated that Kingdom Hearts is light and not darkness it would stand to reason that either the story writers never noticed your interpretation or there is another explanation for it. What I can come up with right now is that the reason why all hearts have darkness in them is because the hearts come from Kingdom Hearts and when they leave to go to a newborn person or world, the darkness that surrounds Kingdom Hearts gets at the heart a bit.

No problem. There are plenty of times I tend to focus on an immediate aspect of an argument and not notice when somebody goes back to their previous point. So unfortunately miscommunication tends to happen when I end up doing that.