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platos cave

Discussion in 'General Kingdom Hearts' started by Yacob, Feb 2, 2016.

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  1. Yacob

    Yacob Banned

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    why is it that the only heartless to spawn in "The world that never was" are shadows or neo shadows?
    and while we are at it, what exactly is the difference between pureblood heartless and the emblem heartless?
    "the world that never was" is a very crucial clue if one wishes to understand these things.

    If you noticed, the only pure blood heartless there are is the shadow type heartless. the little shadow, the neo shadow and the dark side which we see in soras dive to the heart is also a shadow heartless that's has gotten close to the light. because the darkside grows out of soras shadow.

    what does this mean? well think about about it. these shadow heartless are the pureblood heartless, they are also the only heartless to appear in "the world that never was"

    "The world that never was," is the base world of Organization 13.

    organization 13 is a group of nobodies who are running things behind the scenes even to the extent of manipulating the keyblade wielder sora.
    the Nobodies, are "the none existent ones" (as they are called in "another side another story") who exist.
    they dont have feelings, but they do have feelings at the same time. They control hordes of lesser nobodies.

    ok so in "the world that never was" where the group of "nobodies," organization 13, runs their operations. the only enemies that spawn are shadow heartless and nobodies.

    this brings me to my conclusion, the truth is that the pureblood heartless, are not real. they are merely shadows created by the ruling 13 bloodlines of the illuminati or organization 13. made for you to do battle with in order to divide and conquer. through religion and fraternities and organizations, they divide us by creating shadows of fake enemies in our mind. these shadows are used as a distraction for us while the ruling powers are strong and unified actively chasing their goal of the "holy grail" or "Kingdom Hearts"
    the pureblood heartless are simply manifestations of the negativity of the individual himself merely his own shadow. they are the shadows of platos cave.

    In the allegory, Plato likens people untutored in the Theory of Forms to prisoners chained in a cave, unable to turn their heads. All they can see is the wall of the cave. Behind them burns a fire. Between the fire and the prisoners there is a barrier, along which puppeteers can walk. The puppeteers, who are behind the prisoners, hold up puppets that cast shadows on the wall of the cave. The prisoners are unable to see these puppets, the real objects, that pass behind them. What the prisoners see and hear are shadows and echoes cast by objects that they do not see.
    Such prisoners would mistake appearance for reality. They would think the things they see on the wall (the shadows) were real; they would know nothing of the real causes of the shadows.
    1. So when the prisoners talk, what are they talking about? If an object (a book, let us say) is carried past behind them, and it casts a shadow on the wall, and a prisoner says “I see a book,” what is he talking about?
    2. He thinks he is talking about a book, but he is really talking about a shadow. But he uses the word “book.” What does that refer to?
    3. Plato gives his answer at line (515b2). The text here has puzzled many editors, and it has been frequently emended. The translation in Grube/Reeve gets the point correctly: “And if they could talk to one another, don’t you think they’d suppose that the names they used applied to the things they see passing before them?”


    4. Plato’s point is that the prisoners would be mistaken. For they would be taking the terms in their language to refer to the shadows that pass before their eyes, rather than (as is correct, in Plato’s view) to the real things that cast the shadows.
     
  2. Taboo Sho

    Taboo Sho The Math Emperor Staff Member Moderator Content Writer

    Can we even classify this as General Kingdom Hearts? @Kitty @Vox I think it should be moved.
     
  3. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    @Taboo Sho , it fits here as well as anywhere. It can stay.

    Admittedly, my KH knowledge isn't all that it used to be, so feel free to correct me, those of you out there more in tune with KH lore, but as far as I can remember, the difference is that emblem heartless were artificially manufactured by Xehanort's experiments (with newer ones being created when people's hearts are stolen by other emblem heartless), whereas the pureblood heartless were created from people willingly giving their hearts to darkness. I don't think there has to be more to it than that.

    As for the rest of it, I think you're off base. Not everything has to have a deeper meaning.

    The game developers thought they looked cool against the backdrop of the world, or they thought they made a nice contrast against the nobodies, versus some of the garish designs of the other heartless? Who knows? All types of enemies do not exist in every world in this game.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2016
  4. NeRo

    NeRo Your Supreme Lord And Savior Staff Member Administrator

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    OK so instead of dismissing you like i planned on doing i'm going to answer each of these things with relevant evidence from video game lore as to why these things exist. So now then

    [​IMG]

    first off, there are more pureblood heartless than you're listing, and you would know that if you had played anything beyond KH1's opening. Only ONE Darkside came from Sora in Re: Coded, and of course the one from his shadow in KH1. But Darkside is a regular pureblood and was even shown to appear in groups a few times in the Realm of Darkness. Mickey killed a group of them, and another group appeared in front of Aqua.so no, the Darkside does not come directly from Sora.


    The difference between the two are that the Purebloods are born DIRECTLY from darkness, while the Emblem heartless are manufactured. There is actually a machine in KH1 that you can visit once at the end of the game that's the very machine pumping these things out. Or at least, was pumping them out when it was built by Ansem. All of this was mentioned in his reports in KH1 as being part of the experiments he did when he found Shadows in his castle. I believe he even mentioned in his reports that be placed the emblem on the machine made heartless to differentiate them from the purebloods.

    Wait exuse me?

    [​IMG]

    There is a reason that there are 13 members and it has less to do with the illuminati and more to do with the legend of the keyblade.

    When war broke out over Kingdom Hearts itself, the X-Blade was split into 20 pieces and Kingdom Hearts itself sank deep into darkness. the X-Blade is the only thing in the universe that can call it back, according to Yen Sid's story in Dream Drop Distance those 20 peices are 7 Light and 13 Darkness Now, Xehanort attempted to reforge the X-Blade by having Ven and Vanitas fight. But another method is to have 7 Lights and 13 Darknesses clash, essentially acting as each of the 20 pieces of the X-Blade And to ensure he had the 13 darknesses, he created Org. 13 From there, he split his own heart into 13 peices and the 13 members were meant to be vessels to each piece of his heart so that he had all 13 of his Darknesses the 7 lights are theorized to be either the 7 Princesses of Heart, or 7 Keyblade weilders.

    The only people in "control" in Org. 13 are Xemnas and Xigbar, because they are the ones that know all of Xehanorts plans and are the ones helping him do it. The rest of the Orginization is under the ruse that they have no emotion or hearts and can get them back by creating the KH Moon in KHII. But in reality, a Nobody CAN reform a heart over time. They were lied to so that they put up less resistance in becoming one of Xehanort's vessels so no, there is no Illuminati shit going on here. Xehanort is and always has been the one in control from the beginning in regards to that group, and he does this through very careful planning decades in the past and using his younger self to help him.


    Quite frankly if you try to deny this you've been living under a rock for the past 10 years.

    Gurl pls stop

    [​IMG]

    @Kitty @Taboo Sho This was for you guys
     
    Taboo Sho likes this.
  5. Yacob

    Yacob Banned

    you really need to work on your reading comprehension level because this is the second time you've misconstrued what I was saying.

    I NEVER said soras darkside was the only darkside EVER
    there are also only 3 kinds of pure blood heartless and they are all shadow types.

    the difference between pureblood heartless and emblem heartless is that the pureblood heartless are shadows. they arnt real. they are only fabrications of perceived darkness.

    the emblem heartless are the manifestations of darkness in peoples hearts controlled and created by the embodiment of perceived darkness Ansem the seeker. who became the embodiment of the darkness people perceive in order to control and manipulate it.

    you said you wanted to talk about things that don't exist.
    well the world that never was and the nobodies and the shadows are that which do not exist... but they do.
    they are the illuminati pulling the strings behind the scenes. conjuring shadows on the wall for your distraction.

    think about it,
    in the world that never was, only nobodies and shadows exist. and organization 13 are a group of nobodies who exist.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 3, 2016
  6. Become

    Become The Pink Opaque Staff Member Moderator Content Writer

    I don't recall that anyone has said anything, anywhere, about wanting to talk about things that don't exist. Now you're just putting words in peoples' mouths... or off of their keyboards.
     
    Taboo Sho likes this.
  7. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    No, the difference between the two is what Vox and I both stated, artificial/forced creation versus willing submission to the darkness.

    What is there to think about? It sounds like this is trying to be some profound statement, but it's not.
     
    NeRo likes this.
  8. Yacob

    Yacob Banned

    vox said it in the illuminati thread. i quoted it in my Op

    do the illuminati exist?
    does organization 13 exist in the KH world?
    "another side another story" says they are the "nonexisitent ones"

    Well... Actually, the Ansem Reports called them "non-existent ones," but a line in Deep Dive told us that "non-existent ones" and "Nobodies" were the same thing.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 3, 2016
  9. Become

    Become The Pink Opaque Staff Member Moderator Content Writer

    You should work on your reading comprehension. If I know Vox at all, he was being facetious.
     
  10. Yacob

    Yacob Banned

    someone being "facetious" has nothing to do with my reading comprehension. and i know it was sarcasm but i was using it to drive the point
     
  11. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    ^ There is no point.

    No. And if it did, it has zero to do with Organization XIII or anything else Kingdom Hearts related. I don't know why you can't just stick to one topic, and stop dragging your other thread topics into other discussions. Then again, you can't even figure out how not to double post, so...

    You're trying to force an explanation for something that already has a much more credible and accepted explanation.
     
    Taboo Sho and NeRo like this.
  12. Yacob

    Yacob Banned

    the illuminati don't exist just like the nobodies don't exist, they are one and the same and the joke or the jack is on you because they do exist and they told you in KH.

    and yes there is a point you just can not see the point because you do not have enough information or knowledge to see it.
    the point is that the nobodies are a group of people who operate in the shadows and claim they don't exist even though they do exist.

    this is like the 13 bloodlines of the illuminati that make the masses believe they do not exist but they do and they operate in the shadows right underneath your noses.
     
  13. Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    I can't with this thread anymore. @Vox and I have already explained your faulty reasoning RE: pureblood and emblem heartless. Nothing else you propose in this thread makes sense and I'm going to give myself brain damage if I keep banging my head against this wall. Anyone out there with more bravery (obstinacy?), godspeed.
     
    Angel likes this.
  14. Become

    Become The Pink Opaque Staff Member Moderator Content Writer

    Actually, the Nobodies encountered in the game maintain the ruse that they DO 'exist' despite the fact that, according to the KHVerse standards, they DON'T. Nor do they explicitly (or otherwise) deny that the Organization exists. Once they're out in the open, which is pretty early on in the second game, they acknowledge and even brag a bit about their status.

    Quoteth Xigbar: "I'm with the Organization. Nothing any old about me."
     
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  15. Yacob

    Yacob Banned

    well the do exist just like the illuminati but they don't maintain any ruse that they do exist. they claim that they have no feelings, no emotions and that they are nobodies who DO NOT exist they have never claimed to actually exist because the ansem reports specifically states they are the non exisistent ones.

    but among people in the know of course they would taunt and ridicule because they actually do exist but they have never stated plainly that they do exist they have always maintained the ruse that they are nobodies who have no feelings and no emotions even though all indications say they do.

     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2016
  16. Become

    Become The Pink Opaque Staff Member Moderator Content Writer

    That video doesn't explain much of anything. If you're trying to use Roxas as your example, then you're off base, because he's a very special case as far as Nobodies are concerned. If I recall correctly, he in fact had a Heart; hence why he was able to wield a Keyblade.

    It's later explained by Yen Sid that the traditional Nobodies have no Hearts, and no feelings as a result, and that they would ruse others into believing they do.


    And later on, Demyx claims that they do have Hearts.


    The point being that Nobodies don't exist according the laws of the Kingdom Hearts universe. But, among the Organization, they act like they do.
     
    Taboo Sho likes this.
  17. Yacob

    Yacob Banned


    yen sid said that "nobodies do not truly exist at all" he also said that they "pretend to have hearts"
    just like the corrupt officials in the political arena pretend to have hearts when they pretend to care about you, but they dont. they do not however exist. and when they are among each other, they never act as if they have hearts or feelings. in fact axel is ridiculed by isa for not being able to let go of his wants to feel friendship.

    so you see, they do actually exist.
     
  18. Taboo Sho

    Taboo Sho The Math Emperor Staff Member Moderator Content Writer

    Axel is special as well because he bonded with Roxas, it's pretty much canon that he had a heart also.
     
  19. Yacob

    Yacob Banned

    they all start to get their hearts back but im afraid you are missing the point almost entirely.
     
  20. Become

    Become The Pink Opaque Staff Member Moderator Content Writer

    What is your point behind this thread? We kind of changed subjects, it would seem.
     
    Taboo Sho likes this.
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