Aloof Debates #2

yes but number one is still flawed, it's why we are born.

 

Law 1: In order for us to know something beyond all doubt, we must establish absolute truth. I recall you saying something about having to 'transverse the ethereal plane' in order to have any glimpse of an absolute in this universe...so I don't believe I need to explain myself here.

But just in case...I feel like I've said this before...suppose there is a huge nuclear blast that wipes out all but one person: a skitsophrenic.

This person is positive that there is one other person on this planet. They can see them, hear them, and even feel their presence.

Are there two people or not? How is the skitsophrenic to know, without external sources?

Furthermore, suppose two people survive...neither of which is a skitsophrenic. Then how can either one be sure beyond all doubt that they are not a skitsophrenic, without hundreds of thousands of others telling them the other people actually exist? How can they be certain the other exists?

You need an absolute...you need a 'reference frame' to be certain of anything.

This uses deductive reasoning, which is why scientific principles are flawed in the first place.

Why can't we prove gravity exists? Why can't me prove the law of conservation of momentum? Because all we know is 'well, to this day, it's never been contradicted.'

This is however, foolish reasoning, which science even acknowledges as imperfect. If you took a weighted coin that comes up heads 10,000 times in a row...does that mean it will never ever come up tails? No...this is infact what chaos theory is about (and not about our existence). Chaos theory suggests that tiny imperfections on the coin, or air particles, may change the outcome of a predictable event. This is why if you've ever done any statistical analysis, you'll see scientific statements such as 'we are 99.9999% sure that ____ will happen.'

Science doesn't do any good with absolutes.

So back on topic. The other billions of people who lived before you, lived until they died. Is this proof?

Law 3: Again, same problem as Law 2. You're assuming your life will be no different from those who came before you.

Punch Line: By doing so...you are assuming the universe holds some form or order. And by doing so...you're being biased. Your assumption that you'll die is indeed an assumption, and not a known fact...an unprovable assumption at that.

 

told you so....

 

...Prove it?

By the way, quoting Descartes doesn't cut it as a proof. Your opinion is fine...it's not foolish to believe your laws hold...but you can't prove your laws without other assumptions (lest your logic be cyclic).

But then how do you prove your assumptions without being cyclic?

 

Correction: You believe you exist. You have no proof because there are no known absolutes.

There's really no way around it...sure, you can be too hardheaded to accept it, but it's true.

Just as some people do not need another to say God exists...you're really being no better in that way.

Everyone has faith in something.

 

No, but then when does a debate ever change anything for anyone? That's not the point...and I hope I didn't make you feel like I think your assumptions/beliefs are silly. I believe in your three rules as well...but there's an important distinction between believing something and knowing something. You were saying people shouldn't bring God into this because it gets messy...but it's already messy...no matter how you slice it.

The point is that, as you now acknowledge, you may be wrong. Nobody can do any better...everyone 'may be wrong' about what they believe...but on a fundamental level, all beliefs are the same...the specifics don't matter...something is taken as true, in lieu of a lack of proof. Nihilist, Theist, Atheist, Minimalist...whatever the perspective.

Life is a journey...to trivialize it into 'life and death' for certain is bad logic. You may (and seem to) believe that you will die...I don't believe any different for myself...but it is just a belief.

I argued above how I have no idea if anyone else exists...namely, I don't know if everyone else, the entire universe, is just some clever A.I. designed to test me. I don't believe that's the case (personally) but can I prove otherwise? ... Certainly not. Maybe someday I won't die, and instead It'll just be like "Bingo! Epiphany!" and I'll see things for what they truly are. Again, I stress that I don't believe this is the case...but to assume you will die for certain is an assumption, no different from assuming there's God, or no God.

You noted you're an agnostic in the religion thread (I think it was)...that's kinda what it's all about right? We're not fully capable of figuring it all out beyond all doubt.

---------------

So then, what is my best guess at the meaning of life? To think...to experience...and above all, to believe. Believe in what you might ask? I can't even be 100% sure of another person's conscious existence (nor can you). All you can do is believe. All you can do is convince yourself that you have a purpose, and that there's a bigger order to the natural disorder.

You have to believe in yourself before you can believe in anyone/anything else.

 

I'd just like to throw in that I see nothing pathetic about your writing...infact, I really respect your perspective and appreciate the fact that you're thinking about things (unfortunately, a good chunk of the human population has a 'sheep' mentality and doesn't think outside the box). All I was asking is that you acknowledge that nothing is absolute (which you seem to know, and are fully capable of comprehending), so as certain as you may be of your beliefs, they are still just beliefs and may not have any influence over any such divine/universal order. In short, it's kind of a 'wake up and see how hopeless the situation actually is' kind of thing.

I find it very hard to believe that you have no talents either...I've met many people who claim that's true, but it's never actually the case. I know I personally feel worthless all the time, and it has little to do with any actual talents I may or may not have. Ok, so I said more about it than I expected, but it's all said and done now. Haha.

Also note that me saying "you don't know for sure," is not a challenge to your beliefs...they may very well be the truth...but no one knows for sure.

-----------

I mean 'believe in yourself' quite literally actually. Not this 'trust in yourself and you can achieve anything' kind of attitude...

I literally mean, you first have to come to terms with the fact that you exist. There are so many possible scenarios (which you may think are bullplop and likely are) for which existence is impossible...I can't list very many because I'm not exactly all-knowing or anything, but I can think of a few** and a smarter person can likely come up with a lot more...but my point is that we can't ever disprove them. Not to pull a card from the religious deck, but that's what faith is all about right?

You have faith in your family and friends, that they'll support you the best they can...the same can be said for your mind and your instincts/gut feelings. You hope they won't let you down or deceive you, but it's always possible that they are (as I mentioned before, with schizophrenia).

So Step 1 is believing that you exist and are of sound mind.

**Here's one:

Suppose for the moment that a Creator, essentially God, does exist. Suppose further, God is all knowing and all powerful (which we can't disprove with complete certainty, so it is possible even if one may not believe it for themselves).

In this scenario, God can do anything...with a flick of His wrist, the universe is formed, and He knows in advance the outcomes of everything.

So how do you know you weren't created right this moment, with all of your past memories intact? How can you know for certain you've existed yesterday? All you know of is the present, right?

Since you can't disprove the existence of such a Creator, and the motives of such a Creator, then it is possible that you, I, or the whole universe, have existed for more than a brief instant.

You may believe this isn't the case...but again (and I'm sorry for repeating this to death) it is a belief and not absolute truth.

 

Exactly.

But if it helps you understand, than I can weasel out some awkward description such as 'capable of thinking, in a way acceptable to yourself' but then everyone fits this description...

I guess this adds more yarn to the ball of string. What is being of sound mind?

 

well if the two are not the same...it says sound of mind, not reality, meaning that there diffrent is way.

 

good point, but if the dragon is real, do you accept it? if it's always been like that then yes, if the dragon doesn't alk down the hallways you wont be sound in mind. bad anolgy.

 

You stole my bit! *pummeling*

*shrug* I just used skitsophrenics instead. lol

My point however, was that you have to sort these issues out within yourself first. If you don't honestly believe in your own mind, then every thought means nothing to you.

Most people assume they exist without a second thought.

 

i wish for a different aloof debate. Something more exciting with out death and religion..i'm horrible at it and don't want to offend when i don't mean to xDDD

but, i believe that only few are lost causes