where you put the light when its dark.

I was debating whether or not to comment on this. It can be an amusing thought exercise, whether you believe what Yacob is saying or not. Personally, my stance is more of a "Why does it matter?" type thing. Even if Kingdom Hearts is one giant metaphor for these things, I don't think it really changes anything. That being said, there were two parts of this I absolutely needed to point out. I wasn't sure if I wanted to, but it keep bugging me.

This is absolutely wrong. Marluxia's pink hair and his scythe are both references to death. In the Japanese culture, pink is considered the color of death, unlike western cultures. Furthermore, the type of scythe Marluxia uses is what the Grim Reaper is usually depicted with. That type of scythe is a terrible tool when it comes to harvesting crops.

I have seen Unlimited Blade Works and I can promise you that it isn't the same story. Not even close. Both on the surface and any sort of hidden subtext. I am inclined to say that Fate would have more subtext to it than Kingdom Hearts, but considering the company that created the story and all other related stories (Fate/Stay Night, Unlimited Blade Works, Heaven's Feel, Fate/Zero, and the magical girl one just to point out the ones most immediately related that I can think of) I would have to say that there isn't this kind of subtext in it.

A final thing to consider is that both these stories come from people from Japan. So saying that they are allegories of ancient civilizations, it would make much more sense to show ancient Japanese legends and beliefs for them to be allegories of. Them being allegories of the western world instead of Japan makes no sense.

you kinda just said the same thing I am saying. pink is the color of death because the sky sometimes turns pink at the time of the setting sun at the time of twilight. the time of the Harvest is connected with Saturn, chronus the God of death or grim reaper if you will he is the God of time and he is a harvest God that's why "saturnalia" was celebrated at harvest time.

also almost all of the worlds ancient religions are more alike than they are different and its because they are based on the same thing and that's primarily because Humans are the pretty much the same for the most part and we depend on the same things for life and we see things similar too being that we are so much a like. so if you understand and search you will see that a lot of the old world religions have FAR more in common than they do apart. so it really doesn't matter if its Japanese, druidic, hindu or what have you.
also if you couldn't see that the holy grain was kingdom hearts and the holy grail war was kingdom hearts?

also shirou is "known" as a fool, even call that as his wiser older self archer. and they are both the same person, this is the story of the story of the sun on its journey through out the houses of the zodiac.

the story of the traveling fool and they grey haired wise man. the separation of old from new the separation of the aries spring lamb "shirou" from the dead of winter "Archer" and we have queen Arthur and Excalibur because its all about the fertility of life.

im not saying sora is king Arthur, just that he resonates his character. and they really arnt huge leaps if you under stand the symbology but you guys obviously don't and it doesn't look like you want to either.

the harvest connects death because the harvest takes place in the ember months, when the sun is about to die in December

December (n.)
c. 1000, from Old French decembre, from Latin December, from decem "ten" (see ten); tenth month of the old Roman calendar, which began with March.

The -ber in four Latin month names is probably from -bris, an adjectival suffix. Tucker thinks that the first five months were named for their positions in the agricultural cycle, and "after the gathering in of the crops, the months were merely numbered."

because you see embers mean that a fire is dying and that is why the definition of ember is as follows

a small piece of burning or glowing coal or wood in a dying fire.

so when the sun dies then the crops die and there is no more food.

also in occult circles pink is connected with the color of purple. in fact the two are interchangeable because they are the colors of TWIlight the time of the 2 lights, the moon and the sun.

its not about the way the Gods conducted themselves but what the Gods represented. of course there is always a sky God , air God etc, etc, so you see they are certainly far more alike than different and they all represent the same thing, which is nature.

well like im saying, almost all stories are retellings of this same anthropomorphic story. talk to anyone who has REALLY read the bibl and they will indeed tell you that the book is telling you the same story over and over and over again. call any church or pastor or ANYBODY you know who likes the bible and ask them if the bible is telling you the same story over and over and they will tell you that it is for the most part. and the bible even tells you there is nothing new under the sun.
if you are asking me how I can relate kingdom hearts in sun worship then I assume you didn't read my first thread? about how the sun was setting as riku changed and then he finally excepts the darkness at night time, the death of the sun.

then in KH2 we have roxas, fighting the champion SETzer who bares a striking resemblance to riku and this all occurs in TWIlight town the time of the 2 lights.

it can be most easily attributed to the ancient battles of Horus and Set of the ancient Egyptians religions but even more still.

but I think im now starting to realize how utterly impossible it is to get people to see this. im gunna need a wider audience.

 

I don't think I said what you're saying. Partially because you didn't try to connect death at all when I commented.

Your only statement about Marluxia before I commented had absolutely nothing to do with death.

No, pink is not the color of death because of the sky changing colors at dusk. If that were the case then every culture would have that sort of belief towards death and the color pink. Obviously that is not the case. The reason why Japan attributes the color pink to death is more closely related to cherry blossoms. Cherry blossoms bloom their pink petals for an incredibly short period of time, like two weeks at most, but I don't think they last for even that long. Then the petals die and fall off the tree and aren't seen again until the next year. There is nothing to do with the harvest.

Most of their similarities have to do with how the world was created. Once you start looking at other myths, the similarities fall apart. Shinto beliefs are rather different from the ancient Greeks. Shinto gods don't really go around screwing with humans the same way the Greek gods do. The top Shinto god Amaterasu didn't kill her father Izanagi like how Zeus killed his father. While there are similarities in ancient religions, they are more different than they are similar.

Well, on a more direct non-symbolic level, Kingdom Hearts is not the holy grail because Kingdom Hearts is the source of all light and is generally considered a good thing and the holy grail in Fate/Stay Night is not. The holy grail is a source of magic which, in the Fate universe, is not considered good or bad like light and darkness are considered in Kingdom Hearts. Furthermore, the holy grail holds all of the world's evils (Due to what amounts to a blunder in a previous grail war) and is actively trying to destroy the world and cause as much suffering as possible.

On a more symbolic level, there's no actual symbolism intended for the holy grail.

Shirou is known as a fool because he is a complete dumb-ass. Which is why I mentioned the different routes of Fate/Stay Night (Fate/Stay Night, Unlimited Blade Works, and Heaven's Feel). Shirou's intelligence seems to differ depending on what route he is on. There is no symbolism about the traveling fool between Shirou and Archer. It has much more to do with idealism versus cynicism and attempting to deconstruct Shirou's idealism to varying degrees depending on the route. Not only that, but the problem of applying the parable of the traveling fool and the wise man to Shirou and Archer simply does not work depending on the route.

The problem here is you are spouting these off as facts. I will say that these metaphors may very well be in the story, but not in the way you have pointed out. You speak of them as deliberate symbols that the story creators completely intended to put in. Understand that in modern times, there are no real original stories anymore. They all draw inspiration from somewhere. They all have events that have occurred in previous stories. So, it is entirely possible that the men who wrote the story for Kingdom Hearts got inspired by or took plot points from previous stories, which in turn did the same thing to a previous story, which did the same to a previous story, which continues a cycle all the way back to the first story of the sun traveling through the zodiac.

You are welcome to find all sorts of symbolism and metaphors in stories. Hell, one of my high school teachers encouraged it and I disliked it because some of the symbolism didn't seem to be there because it was too vague and off point. But unless you can provide actual physical undeniable proof that these things you talk of are intentional (And by proof, I mean something like the creators going on video and admitting to these things), you cannot say that this is truly what the meaning is.

Let me give you an example. Are you aware of the book Fahrenheit 451? People have come up with all sorts of meaning for the book. The author has publicly come out and explained the meaning behind the book and people have told him he is wrong. Now, who would you believe when it comes to the meaning of a story? Would you believe the creator? Or would you believe somebody else who pieced together an equally good, if not better, meaning?

 

I don't see how any of this has to do with my point. I am not saying there isn't some ancient connection to harvest and death. You said the color of Marluxia's hair has to do with the harvest. I explained why that is not the case. It has nothing to do with the harvest and has everything to do with cherry blossoms and Japanese beliefs of death. Why else do cherry blossoms continue to appear with Marluxia? Marluxia represents death, but not the harvest.

I'm trying to see why you bothered trying to connect the -ber ending in the name of the months with the word ember. Neither -ber nor -bris have anything to do with ember aside from the fact that ember has the letters b-e-r.
ember (n.)
"small, live coal," Old English æmerge "ember," merged with or influenced by Old Norse eimyrja, both from Proto-Germanic *aim-uzjon- "ashes" (cognates: Middle Low German emere, Old High German eimuria, German Ammern); a compound from *aima- "ashes" (from PIE root *ai- (2) "to burn;" see edifice) + *uzjo- "to burn" (from PIE root *eus- "to burn;" source also of Latin urere "to burn, singe"). The -b- is intrusive.

Bringing in occult beliefs about colors means nothing. Especially being connected to purple. Has nothing to do with how the Japanese view pink. Japanese game created by Japanese people. Kinda makes sense they would go with Japanese beliefs about things. Especially since Marluxia's death symbolism fits perfectly with Japanese death symbolism.

Ancient religions probably had more to do with how the gods conducted themselves more than what they represented. You can't just discard half of ancient religion just because that half is what separates all ancient religions. Using the Greeks again, while Zeus did represent lightning and thunder and all that part of nature, another part of Greek worship was "Don't fuck with Zeus because you'll be punished forever for doing so."

Yes, ancient religions are similar because they have gods to represent the same thing. The Egyptians had Ra to represent the sun, the Shinto had Amaterasu, etc. But to say that all ancient religions are more similar than they are different is such an incorrect statement. If you take out everything that makes two things different, then of course they are going to be similar.

To begin with, Setzer was created before Riku. He is a character in Final Fantasy VI, which came out in a time when 16-bit graphics (Or however many bit graphics they were using at the time) was still a thing. So if anything, Riku bares a striking resemblance to Setzer. But lets be honest, aside from spiky silver hair, they don't look that similar. In fact, I'm pretty certain their hair colors are different shades of silver/white, so that takes away from the resemblance further. So with resemblance between the two, I would say there is little to no resemblance.

Now, about you attributing the struggle match between Roxas and Setzer to the battle of Horus and Set, I am honestly curious how. Being honest, I'm seeing this as some impressive mental gymnastics. Horus and Set were nephew and uncle and Set was an evil bastard (And Horus was missing his eye at one point or another). Roxas and Setzer have no connection to each other at all and while Setzer was a bit underhanded by trying to get Roxas to throw the match, I wouldn't call him an evil bastard.

If you're going to attribute their fight to some ancient story, I figure David and Goliath works better. But that doesn't even really work too well.

Kitty has pointed out why people aren't getting your point. You're throwing out all these random things while barely connecting them. Have you ever seen that picture of Siri explaining why firetrucks are red? Unfortunately that's kinda what you're sounding like. I am truly interested in these types of things but I'm always going to be skeptical about them.

Furthermore, there is a bit of hypocrisy with how you view us going against what you believe. You speak of all these things as though they are fact and are appearing to get upset that we refuse to jump in your beliefs and yet you yourself are failing to acknowledge that perhaps you have read too deeply into things and are wrong. And that is what is rubbing people the wrong way. You fail to accept that you may be wrong and are instead going off as if you are completely correct. I know you mentioned in the first post you haven't pieced all your clues together, but at the very least you can accept that perhaps some of your clues are wrong.

 

I am incredibly impressed you found this. I was not expecting it. Were I to nitpick it, the only thing I can think of right now is that the top paragraph says it has many symbolic uses, not that it necessarily originated from harvest rituals. I would also talk about the quote "just like the harvest rituals of ancient times were" which implies at the least that the harvest rituals and rituals involving cherry blossoms are two separate things. That being said, the following paragraph goes against that. So I can't really find a way to argue against this point.

Ok, now I think I'm starting to understand a bit why you're talking about embers. I guess I misread you talking about December being an ember month.

I read this thread when you first made it. After that I didn't really pay much attention because, as I said in my first post, I initially didn't intend to join the discussion. And I joined because of two specific things you talked about, which to myself meant that I didn't need to focus on the other parts of your argument because they weren't the two parts I specifically joined for. Though now that our conversation has gone past that, I might have to go back to your first post and reread it.

Origin of the world and personification of nature. What other things do they have in common?

 

Huh, seven and a half hours and I was expecting at least one reply to Yacob. I would've replied earlier but unfortunately didn't have the time.

The problem is that Marluxia still doesn't represent the time of the harvest because of the scythe and hair color. I've been thinking on this all day and it seems to me that there's a distinction that has been missing. I alluded to it earlier with what I was saying about that cycle of inspiration that eventually leads to the very first stories.

Basically it is this. Marluxia represents death, which is shown through various symbols such as his scythe and cherry blossoms. These Japanese beliefs of death and cherry blossoms and whatnot all originally came from metaphors involving harvest rituals. But, that does not mean that his symbolism refers to the harvest. As time passes, the meaning behind things change. Old explanations and definitions are forgotten as new ones take their place. Therefore, when somebody uses something as inspiration, they are more likely to be using the new metaphors instead of the old ones. They may certainly use the old ones if they are aware of them and prefer them to the newer one. But it is important to consider the person's knowledge in these matters. Do you think the average Japanese citizen is aware of the origin of their symbolism of death, pink, and cherry blossoms?

For the tl;dr version: While these symbols originated from something like a harvest ritual, it is incredibly likely that the creators had no idea of those origins when coming up with their ideas. This being the case, the original meaning cannot be the intended result when inserting these symbols into their stories.

Yes, I said Kingdom Hearts is light because Kingdom Hearts is light. It has been pointed throughout the series multiple times that Kingdom Hearts is light. In the deepest darkness there will always be a light. That is true. Kingdom Hearts (The light) was swallowed up by the darkness and resides in the deepest reaches of the darkness. Again, this has been mentioned multiple times throughout the series.

I never actually said Kingdom Hearts itself was good or bad. I said light and darkness are considered good and bad. Which in the series is true. On the most basic level, the good guys are on the side of light while the bad guys are on the side of darkness. There are very few exceptions of good guys using the power of darkness. You're welcome to talk about light and darkness not being good or bad, which again is true. But given that we have yet to see a villain use light for evil, the game ends up showing light as good and darkness as bad. To continue this, Kingdom Hearts itself isn't good or bad and is instead a source of power that the bad guys are after. The good guys aren't seeking Kingdom Hearts, they are defending it from the bad guys. None of the good guys are actively trying to reach Kingdom Hearts and instead end up there due to working against the bad guys.