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Religion: Christianity & relationship with God.

Discussion in 'Mature Discussion' started by EtherealSummoner, Apr 15, 2009.

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  1. Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    Humans can. But when it comes to giving the Pope his power, humans can't do that. It's a divine power. Humans aren't divine.

    Actually, when comparing the sizes of stars, our sun is actually a medium sized star. It's big to us, but smaller than lots of stars.
     
  2. Mythril Roxas

    Mythril Roxas New Member

    You countradict yourself, and thats were I am getting to my point. The Pope is nothing more than a human, he has no power. His power comes from people's faith IN HIM. He has no god given power, he can not heal the blind or sick, he can not turn evil men into swine, and he can not send lightning down from above to kill his enemies. He can not destroy, save, or preserve, therefore he has no god given power. He's just a wrinkly old man...sorry to break it to you.
    Its like your a little kid that believes in Santa, and I'm the one who has to tell you he isn't real.
    The Pope has no power. Only a Title given to him by OTHER HUMANS.



    I know, and thats my point. You know what I meant, dont you?
     
  3. Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    No, I don't contradict myself. I never once said the Pope is given divine powers. But, whatever kind of power he has is given to him through God. Humans don't have the authority to give people the Pope's power.

    I just wanted to correct you incase you didn't know the size of the sun. Just a mistake on my behalf.
     
  4. Mythril Roxas

    Mythril Roxas New Member

    o.0
    You just did.....




    Humans give him his title and authority. We aren't born anyy rights or privaledges un-earned. My point is, HE isn't God. Nor does he posses any superhuman gifts given by god. Nor is he any type of messenger chosen by god to do his will. He is just a human.
     
  5. EtherealSummoner

    EtherealSummoner Lamentations 3:22-26

    To tell you the truth, I agree with Mythril. Seriously, I don't be thinking about that new pope & after hearing about the previous pope who had died in his bed, the people panicked & went around to find another person to be the new pope. Well, that's what I had remembered from the news at the age of 11, or was it 12.
     
  6. Waterfall17

    Waterfall17 New Member

    I appreciate your zeal, but Zenrot actually has a point. And so does summonerbrandon. You have argued with him with a harsher tone than most, if not all, in these debate forums. I think that Zenrot is merely trying to illustrate this in the hopes that you would attempt to be more reasonable—at least in your tone. The majority of the time people are labeled ‘fool’ they stop listening to what the labeler has to say…this is a concept that I don’t need to go through all the details about…but summonerbrandon has not stopped listening to you. It’s rather commendable, and illustrates that he is, in fact, even if only on a small level, willing to listen. It’s progress. Is that entirely unsatisfying?

    And it doesn’t matter if he hasn’t done anything for me. There are many people who have never done anything—and who will never do anything—for me, but I still choose to minister unto them. The agape concept—love God, so that He can love others through you—I love them. It is as simple as that, and I do not expect things in return. Admittedly, it is wonderful when someone returns the love you have for them; but even if they didn’t, I would still love them.

    I have discussed this elsewhere with you, but I happen to know a good lot about other religions (having both studied and practiced them), and I have listened to people with experience. I’ve had my fair share of experience/experiences. I understand that yes, many Christians might not want to read up on other religions (which I think is unwell simply because it impedes understanding of others, and therefore impedes ministry). However, in seeing that I have studied, have experienced, and have listened…I would ask that you please avoid stereotyping me as such. It’s just not true.

    I do not agree with this pedophile…issue. I HATE that it exists. If those ones are truly filled with the Holy Spirit, He is grieved and angered with such horrendously immoral decisions…and He will convict those who have committed such acts, that they might repent. Of course, this doesn’t mean that they will repent; free will is always present, and they can choose to disobey God by doing what is sinful. I honestly have nothing to say for them, other than the flesh is weak, and Christians are called to put to death the deeds of the flesh—to “Be holy, for I am holy” (I Peter 1:16, OT many). There is no excuse for this behavior, and God will judge them according to their works…just as He will judge me for mine.

    It would be pretty much impossible to “go all out.” There is too much information about religions and religious practice, etc. to know all of it. Just because someone doesn’t know about druj doesn’t prove anything.

    And about the whole authority thing…I’ll spare you and leave it for the next post I make. :)

    [And I applaud you, summonerbrandon, and thank you for explaining about the free will aspect in regards to creation and such. Same to Desert Warrior.

    *Understandable, Mythril Roxas. Can’t really help length…sorry. I’m not at all afraid of sharing testimony on the internet, though I’m thankful for your concern.]
     
  7. Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    There's obviously miscomminucation here. When I said "But when it comes to giving the Pope his power, humans can't do that. It's a divine power," I meant it's a divine power that gives the Pope his power. Once again, I haven't said that the Pope is given divine powers.

    That's where the belief thing I mentioned before comes in. I believe that the Pope is given his powers by God because he's empowered by the Holy Spirit. You don't believe that because you believe that the Pope is a regular human (Which technically he is), and you don't believe that God is one being in three different forms at the same time (God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit). And unless you believe that about God, you'll never believe that there is anything special about the Pope.

    And you go on saying what you say is fact. Just because you believe it to be so, and have found things that support you. But you cannot be absolutely certain of things. There are some facts we'll never find out until we die. Like if you believe humans go to either Heaven or Hell. You cannot say that you know which one somebody went to. Heck, I'm sure everybody believes Hitler is guarenteed to be in Hell. But, there is a possiblity he isn't there, and is instead in Heaven. The Lord works in mysterious ways (I don't know where in the Bible that is. I just have heard it alot).
     
  8. Mythril Roxas

    Mythril Roxas New Member

    not mysteriously in the way YOU'd think.
    Belief in the Pope has nothing to do with belief in the trinity.
    Certain things ARE fact.
    And also, you really think some different entity besides God gives the Pope his power? You called this new entity "the divine power". Now, I've put you into a place were you have two choices, the one I think you'll say is the Holy Spirit is what you eamnt by divine power. But if the Pope and priests receive anyt extra power from divine entities, then I believe it would be Satan if anything.
     
  9. EtherealSummoner

    EtherealSummoner Lamentations 3:22-26

    -_-_-. I don't remember reading about the Pope in the bible. I never did. I'm going to do some research.
     
  10. Mythril Roxas

    Mythril Roxas New Member

    THANK YOU SUMMNERBRANDON!!!!
    Great point, something so simple that slipped my own mind.
    You are right 100% summoner! I tried 2 give you rep, but it said I need to give it to others before give it to you again.
    Good way to use logic!
     
  11. EtherealSummoner

    EtherealSummoner Lamentations 3:22-26

    This is part of what I've found about the Pope:


    The Pope (from Latin: "papa" or "father" from Greek πάπας, pápas, "papa", Papa in Italian) is the Bishop of Rome and as such is the leader of the worldwide Catholic Church (that is, all Latin Rite and Eastern Rite churches which are in full communion with the Roman Pontiff). The Pope is also head of state of Vatican City. The current (265th) pope is Pope Benedict XVI, who was elected April 19, 2005 in papal conclave.
    The office of the pope is called the Papacy; his ecclesiastical jurisdiction is called the "Holy See" (Sancta Sedes in Latin) or "Apostolic See" (the latter on the basis that both St. Peter and St. Paul were martyred at Rome). In addition to his spiritual role, the pope is Head of State of the independent sovereign state of the Vatican City, a city-state entirely enclaved by the city of Rome.
    Early popes helped spread Christianity and resolve doctrinal disputes.[1] After the conversion of the Roman Empire, the pope's secular ally was the Roman Emperor. In the 8th century, however, Pope Stephen II was forced to appeal to the Franks for help,[2] beginning a period of close interaction with the rulers of the West. For centuries, the forged Donation of Constantine also provided the basis for the papacy's claim of political supremacy over the entire former Western Roman Empire. In medieval times, popes played powerful roles in Western Europe, often struggling with monarchs for power over wide-ranging affairs of church and state,[1] crowning emperors (Charlemagne was the first emperor crowned by a pope) and regulating disputes among secular rulers.[3]
    Gradually forced to give up secular power, popes have come to focus again almost exclusively on spiritual matters.[1] Over the centuries, popes' claims of spiritual authority have been ever more clearly expressed since the first centuries, culminating in the proclamation of the dogma of papal infallibility for those rare occasions the pope speaks ex cathedra (literally "from the chair (of Peter)") when issuing a solemn definition of faith or morals.[1] The last such occasion was in the year 1950 with the definition of the dogma of the Assumption of Mary.

    But when it came to electing the pope:


    The pope was originally chosen by those senior clergymen resident in and near Rome. In 1059 the electorate was restricted to the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, and the individual votes of all Cardinal Electors were made equal in 1179. Pope Urban VI, elected 1378, was the last pope who was not already a cardinal at the time of his election. Canon law requires that if a layman or non-bishop is elected, he receives episcopal consecration from the Dean of the College of Cardinals before assuming the Pontificate. Under present canon law, the pope is elected by the cardinal electors, comprising those cardinals who are under the age of 80.
    The Second Council of Lyons was convened on 7 May 1274, to regulate the election of the pope. This Council decreed that the cardinal electors must meet within ten days of the pope's death, and that they must remain in seclusion (see Papal conclave) until a pope has been elected; this was prompted by the three-year Sede Vacante following the death of Pope Clement IV in 1268. By the mid-sixteenth century, the electoral process had more or less evolved into its present form, allowing for alteration in the time between the death of the pope and the meeting of the cardinal electors.
    Traditionally, the vote was conducted by acclamation, by selection (by committee), or by plenary vote. Acclamation was the simplest procedure, consisting entirely of a voice vote, and was last used in 1621. Pope John Paul II abolished vote by acclamation and by selection by committee, and henceforth all Popes will be elected by full vote of the Sacred College of Cardinals by ballot (see Papal election).





    The election of the pope almost always takes place in the Sistine Chapel, in a sequestered meeting called a "conclave" (so called because the cardinal electors are theoretically locked in, cum clave, until they elect a new pope). Three cardinals are chosen by lot to collect the votes of absent cardinal electors (by reason of illness), three are chosen by lot to count the votes, and three are chosen by lot to review the count of the votes. The ballots are distributed and each cardinal elector writes the name of his choice on it and pledges aloud that he is voting for "one whom under God I think ought to be elected" before folding and depositing his vote on a plate atop a large chalice placed on the altar (in the 2005 conclave, a special urn was used for this purpose instead of a chalice and plate). The plate is then used to drop the ballot into the chalice, making it difficult for any elector to insert multiple ballots. Before being read, the number of ballots are counted while still folded; if the total number of ballots does not match the number of electors, the ballots are burned unopened and a new vote is held. Otherwise, each ballot is read aloud by the presiding Cardinal, who pierces the ballot with a needle and thread, stringing all the ballots together and tying the ends of the thread to ensure accuracy and honesty. Balloting continues until a Pope is elected by a two-thirds majority[21].
    One of the most famous aspects of the papal election process is the means by which the results of a ballot are announced to the world. Once the ballots are counted and bound together, they are burned in a special stove erected in the Sistine Chapel, with the smoke escaping through a small chimney visible from St. Peter's Square. The ballots from an unsuccessful vote are burned along with a chemical compound in order to produce black smoke, or fumata nera. (Traditionally, wet straw was used to help create the black smoke, but a number of "false alarms" in past conclaves have brought about this concession to modern chemistry.) When a vote is successful, the ballots are burned alone, sending white smoke (fumata bianca) through the chimney and announcing to the world the election of a new pope. At the end of the conclave that elected Pope Benedict XVI, church bells were also rung to signal that a new pope had been chosen.
    The Dean of the College of Cardinals then asks the cardinal who has been successfully-elected two solemn questions. First he asks, "Do you freely accept your election?" If he replies with the word "Accepto", his reign as Pope begins at that instant, not at the inauguration ceremony several days afterward. The Dean then asks, "By what name shall you be called?" The new pope then announces the regnal name he has chosen for himself. (If the Dean himself is elected pope, the Vice Dean performs this duty).
    The new pope is led through the "Door of Tears" to a dressing room in which three sets of white papal vestments (immantatio) await: small, medium, and large. Donning the appropriate vestments and reemerging into the Sistine Chapel, the new pope is given the "Fisherman's Ring" by the Cardinal Camerlengo, whom he first either reconfirms or reappoints. The pope then assumes a place of honor as the rest of the cardinals wait in turn to offer their first "obedience" (adoratio) and to receive his blessing.
    The senior Cardinal Deacon then announces from a balcony over St. Peter's Square the following proclamation: Annuntio vobis gaudium magnum! Habemus Papam! ("I announce to you a great joy! We have a pope!"). He then announces the new pope's Christian name along with the new name he has adopted as his regnal name.
    Until 1978 the pope's election was followed in a few days by the Papal Coronation. A procession with great pomp and circumstance formed from the Sistine Chapel to St. Peter's Basilica, with the newly elected pope borne in the sedia gestatoria. There, after a solemn Papal Mass, the new pope was crowned with the triregnum (papal tiara) and he gave for the first time as pope the famous blessing Urbi et Orbi ("to the City [Rome] and to the World"). Another renowned part of the coronation was the lighting of a bundle of flax at the top of a gilded pole, which would flare brightly for a moment and then promptly extinguish, with the admonition Sic transit gloria mundi ("Thus passes worldly glory"). A similar sombre warning against papal hubris made on this occasion was the ritual exclamation "Annos Petri non videbis", reminding the newly crowned Pope that he would not live to see his rule lasting as long as that of St. Peter, who according to tradition headed the church for 35 years and has thus far been the longest reigning Pope in the history of the Catholic Church.
    A traditionalist Catholic belief claims the existence of the Papal Oath (not to be confused with the Oath Against Modernism mandated by Pope Pius X), which the popes from John Paul I on are said to have refused to swear, but there is no reliable authority for this claim.
    The Latin term sede vacante ("vacant seat") refers to a papal interregnum, the period between the death of a pope and the election of his successor. From this term is derived the term sedevacantism, which designates a category of dissident Catholics who maintain that there is no canonically and legitimately elected Pope, and that there is therefore a Sede Vacante. One of the most common reasons for holding this belief is the idea that the reforms of the Second Vatican Council and especially the replacement of the Tridentine Mass with the Mass of Paul VI are heretical, and that, per the dogma of papal infallibility, it is impossible for a valid Pope to have done these things. Secevacantists are considered to be schismatics by the mainstream Roman Catholic Church.
    For centuries, the papacy was an institution dominated by Italians. Prior to the election of the Polish cardinal Karol Wojtyla as Pope John Paul II in 1978, the last non-Italian was Pope Adrian VI of the Netherlands, elected in 1522. John Paul II was followed by the German-born Benedict XVI, leading some to believe the Italian domination of the papacy to be over

    Edit: This is from Wikipedia.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2009
  12. Mythril Roxas

    Mythril Roxas New Member

    wow.
    Wikipedia?
     
  13. Yukie

    Yukie Fist Pumps

    Please give credit where you find it. I don't want the site to get sue for plagerism.
     
  14. EtherealSummoner

    EtherealSummoner Lamentations 3:22-26

    YIes, this is from Wikipedia. I didn't know how to give credit to them cuz I don't know either to tell them that I 'm giving them credit or what, but from what I've found, it suprised me. THere is still a whole lot more to be read, but it's bestto read about the pope form wikipedia & other sources.
     
  15. Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    You put it in quote tags. That's how you give credit. And mention the site it's from.

    No. God gives the Pope his power. When I said that it's a divine power that gives the Pope his power, I am referring to God. God's divine power gives the Pope his power.

    In the New Testament. When Jesus says to Peter "Upon this rock you will build my church." Jesus is making Peter the first Pope.
     
  16. EtherealSummoner

    EtherealSummoner Lamentations 3:22-26

    I remember Peter making the church, but I don't remember Jesus making Peter a Pope. Where does it says that & I'll read it to see if Peter was a Pope or a Pastor.
     
  17. Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    Peter became the first Pope. Jesus made him the first Pope.
     
  18. Mythril Roxas

    Mythril Roxas New Member

    Are you countradicting yourself?
    I do not believe God gives the Pope any power at all. He is a human being, nothng more. How can you not see that?


    No, he was never the Pope.



    That makes no sense. Why wouldn't he just have said:"Hey, Pete, your the Pope of my church."
    He doesnt even hint to giving Peter any authority at all in that passage. How do you get "Peter was the first Pope" out of " Upon this rock you will build my church"?

    That makes absolutely NO sense...
     
  19. Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    No. I haven't contradicted myself with that. How do you see contradiction? I am saying that God's divine power gives the Pope his power. I haven't said that the Pope has divine power.

    I can see that. And I understand where you're coming from. But as I've said before, it goes down to belief. And I know that I can't change you're belief, it's kinda pointless arguing over whether or not the Pope has any kind of special powers or anything.

    Yes he was. He was the first. Here's something.

    Here's the link if you want to read more. This quote above I got about half way down the page. Wikipedia: Saint Peter

    I don't know. Why don't you ask Jesus if you ever meet him?

    The passage doesn't specifically point out things. Some research needs to be done on it. Not every answer is right in front of somebody.
     
  20. Mythril Roxas

    Mythril Roxas New Member

    You have contradicted yourself over and over again with this Pope has divine power from GOd thing. My point is, HE DOESN'T! But you still hold onto your belief, and thats fine I guess. You have that right because of Masons that fought for this country and it's Ideals, the very people THE VADICAN HATES!!!!!

    Also, the Bible is interpreted in thousands of ways. To say one is better than another without proof is just stupid. To say that that passage ment Peter was the first Pope is just flat out dumb (sorry). Thats like saying 2+3=4, and then someone says "Huh? Thats not right", and you'd respond:"I don't know, why don't you ask the numbers?"

    It makes no sense what so ever.
    And I already know that some Catholics THINK that Peter is the first Pope, but I say that is wrong in defense of Protestants. The Pope is a joke anyways.
     
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