Abortion

I agree with what Demon said. Religion cannot be separated from the state, though it dearly loves to try. But there will always be bias…so it’s extremely unrealistic. As I talked about before somewhere, religion is one of the key aspects of our worldview (to make it cold…I obviously consider my relationship with God to be more than just a “key aspect” of my worldview), and as such, religion cannot just be extracted at the snap of a finger. It’s impossible. No matter what a person believes…and everyone believes something…it will influence everything else that they do.

The war on Iraq has a lot of other issues behind it. Political, economic, cultural…just singling out one without realizing the influence of the others seems unfair, don’t you think?

I think the point I want to make in regards to your first point…why do you even care if someone is being beat up in the first place?

Morals are an integrated part of society, huh? So, society just came up with good and evil all on their own, right? You seriously believe that? …why? Should and shouldn’t aren’t scientific questions. How did man come to answer them? Or how does he? What is the base for these answers/decisions? Why is safety important?

Yes, but again, what do they base it on?

Basis/base for the concept of justice?


...I'm going to be gone for about a week or two (spring break) on choir tour, so after today I probably won't be able to respond until after. Sorry.

 

interesting Waterfall...but you know the answer to all that, dont you? We base it on our inner consciousness that guides everyone. A type of "god" if you will that tells us all right from wrong, whats good and whats evil.

 

Thats making this into a bit of a religious debate. Back on subject plz? I would like to debate and all i am seeing is off topic crap.

 

agreed Zerieth

 

Well, now back to the subject. I do in fact believe that abortion is wrong, but I feel uneasy about not having the woman have a say in an unwanted pregnancy.

 

Mowsers…that was a little frustrating, but it’s okay…

Inner consciousness that guides everyone. Ok. Well, what if there is no right or wrong? Because there is no standard in the constructs that you have just described. Therefore, right and wrong do not exist, because cruelty becomes non-cruelty; they are both the same.

However, we both know that right and wrong exist, don’t we? How do we know, though?

This is a debate forum, and we are on topic. The topic is whether or not abortion is right or wrong, no? Well, how do you expect me to establish this without a base? Meta theory—ontology and epistemology—come before substantive…we need to first establish what exists and then how we know what we know before we argue for or against abortion.

So I disagree with both of you. A moral debate without any basis is ridiculous, for lack of a better word.

 

Yes, finally. . . thanks

 

Your sounding like some type of know-it-all and you sound kinda dumb. Yes, everyone knows that right and wrong exists, so stop saying things like "oh, it doesnt exist because we cant proove it". DUH?! ITS NOT A MATERIAL THING!!!!!! Thats why, in a sense, its a type of god. Something there that we cant touch that guides our everday lives. WE KNOW ITS THERE! Thats proof enough. And god set it into our souls when he created them morals. The id and the super ego,the good angel and the bad angel on your shoulders, I mean you can call it what ever you like, its all the same. This is that consciousness that I am talking about, a type of "god" if you will because nothing created it, its always there. Always has been there and always will be there.

 

But then if this God is so powerful, why can't he just bring this dead fetus back to life?

 

Because that is somehow messing with free will. God will never mess with free will.

 

But if he or she has the power to give, he or she must have the power to take.

 

I apologize that I sound dumb—stupid—to you. I am trying to allow you to reach an answer for yourself that’s logical, rather than handing you an answer and having your understanding be empty. I want you to understand!!

I know that it is not a material thing. I am not saying that it doesn’t exist because we can’t prove it. I am trying to point out that good and evil didn’t just pop up one day…or that these “standards” were made randomly by society/what each individual thinks (moral relativist view) and/or evolved (evolutionist view) over time.

I am very happy that you have discovered the origin of morality is outside humans; that is to say, humans did not create morality. Yet we know that it is there. (You have no idea how delighted I am right at this moment.)
You mention that God set it into our souls…interesting. If a human being is composed of three main things—body, soul (mind, will, emotions), and spirit (conscience, communion with God, and intuition, which is like having insight to God’s will for you—this seems to make sense, right? Plus, the fact that humans are created in the image of God…despite the fall, people are still made in the image of God. We were made with a conscience.

…So I suppose that Z. was right in a way that this was a religious debate. This is because a moral debate has no base without God because good and evil do not exist without God. Yet for Atheists, good and evil still have a pull for them; they consider people good or bad. The question is, how do they know what good and bad are? And furthermore, how can they be sure that what they are talking about even exists, because the concept would have never been introduced?

...I'll allow reply to that before I say anything else on the subject.

To The Graceful Assassin:

Of course He does. He has chosen to give it.

I feel that I should say this: God loves you so much that He isn't going to force you to obey Him...even though we were created to worship Him. He gives us the choice to follow Him.

 

Yes. God has the power to take away free will.

But just because somebody can do something doesn't mean they should or would.

 

But isn't it true that he/she can take away life?

 

Yes, God can. (I think it should be noted that He also gives life...and that without Him life wouldn't exist...) But it is just as Desert Warrior said: that doesn't mean He would...

God is good. I have been reading a really great book lately that I think might shed some understanding on the current discussion, and I’d like to share a passage out of it:

“As used in Scripture, holiness describes both the majesty of God and the purity and moral perfection of His nature. Holiness is one of His attributes; that is, holiness is an essential part of the nature of God….we ourselves do not always know what is right, what is just and fair…[But] His perfect knowledge precludes any uncertainty on what is right and wrong.

But sometimes, even when we know what is right there is a reluctance on our part to do it…But here again, this is never true with God. God never vacillates. He always does what is just and right without the slightest hesitation. It is impossible in the very nature of God for Him to do otherwise…

If God is perfectly holy, then we can be confident that His actions toward us are always perfect and just.” (Spread out across pages 23, 24, and 25.)

I wanted to call particular attention to this one, however:

“God is often called in Scripture by such names as the Holy One, or the Holy One of Israel. Holy, according the Stephen Charnock, is used more often as a prefix to His name than any other attribute. Holiness is God’s crown. Imagine for a moment that God possessed omnipotence (infinite power), omniscience (perfect and complete knowledge), and omnipresence (everywhere present), but without perfect holiness. Such a one could no longer be described as God. Holiness is the perfection of all His other attributes. His power is holy power; His mercy is holy mercy; His wisdom is holy wisdom…” (26).

God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. He can take life as He wills. But He is holy. Just because He can doesn’t mean that He should/would…He judges and decides such things…and what He decides is perfect. He is holy.

"The Pursuit of Holiness" by Jerry Bridges.

 

Well then that solves it. God would not kill a baby/fetus so neither should we.

 

But my point is is that if the baby is killed, then he can give it back life . . . that is, if he's "all-powerful."

 

You all are saying that "Christian God would not allow the death of a fetus". The government cannot pass a law that way. It would be immediatly struck down by the supreme court. Laws cannot favor the beliefs of any group of people, despite how many are made that way.

 

Not true, I'm asking if this god can give life back since he/she is so powerful.

 

You know that God is all powerful. What is too hard for Him? What you ask is beside the point--which is that He isn't going to do that. People choose things that have consequences. In this case, the consequence is death...if people were not so heartless, they would not do these things. I would like to take the time to explain this further at a later time when I have more time to formulate....