Mithras, the true god?

Will do. Ok, done. And point? Looking toward the original Hebrew/Greek for each of these would probably yield a much greater understanding. Sometimes things get lost in translation, such as the concept of agape. In English, there is only one word for love. In Greek, there are definitely more than that. Agape has a special connotation that we miss be merely reading the English word. This is not to say that the Holy Spirit is insufficient to teach us in all things and give us discernment as to the love of God, but rather again that some ways of describing things are lost when language transfer occurs.

In regard to these two passages, I’d like for you to understand something that we both need to keep in mind. Satan was beautiful. He was powerful. But he exalted himself and rebelled against God, and thus, he fell. Still, he is likely beautiful, and very powerful, second only to Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. Does it cause you to stumble because the Lord calls Himself the Bright and Morning Star? Is He lower than satan because of this? No, He is not. I am not trying to be rude by asking what your point is, but rather seeking genuine understanding as to what it is you are trying to point out to me, because I do not see it.

Beloved, Scripture is God-breathed, inspired by the Holy Spirit. God does not (nor can He) lie. satan is the father of lies. …such things distress me. If you knew who satan is—how much he hates you (which I just realized the intensity of recently)—and if you knew who God is, and how much He loves you (which I am still amazed at, and have yet to understand)…then you could take it yourself as proof. It would be before your eyes and in your heart, and undeniably so. I can show you all of the promises that God has made and kept to His people, how faithful He is, and good. Understanding who God is is imperative to understanding that lying is evil. God is not evil—He is holy. This is seen not with the mind only, but with the heart, and is revealed.

What is matter of fact that is coming from you? Science is ill-equipped to battle in a theological argument, wouldn’t you agree?

But yes, I see your point about similarity. Like I said, false doctrine...you know, satan has been around for quite a while. He does what he does well, and he's been doing what he's best at for ages (literally): lying, killing/murdering, stealing, and destroying. He's not stupid. He works at what he does 24/7, and knows exactly how to ensnare people. Thus, it isn't ridiculous (I can’t remember the word I was trying to use…) to think that he presented people with what he knew would eventually happen. He knew that the Messiah would come. If he planted the idea of mithraism into a people group’s head beforehand, arguments like yours might come up and cause people to fall away from the faith. The people group in the midst of mithraism might have been persuaded to follow the false Christ, of which there are many. But there is only one true Christ, one true Messiah: Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the Son of God. If they had asked God, the church people would have known that this mithra was not God’s Son—not the Messiah.

As for the copying…I think that some supposedly “Christian” things are copied from other religions, such as the pagan ideas in easter. I hate that word…anyway (as I recover from disgust, because it’s just that disturbing to me)…the concept of the Messiah coming is from God Himself, who was (and is) before all things. He is the Beginning and the End. Time does not hold Him—instead, He holds time in His hand. Christians are those who believe in God and believe that He sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to us. The concept of the Messiah is not copied from other religions. It is revealed by God Himself to us. Satan, being satan, and knowing that the Messiah would eventually come, could have indeed planted the idea of a “Christ-like” (but not even comparatively close) figure to people, and thus spread mithraism and mithra as this being.

Basically, I guess I’m trying to say that God doesn’t copy the inventions of man for His glory. He is so unbelievably greater than us, and so infinitely wiser, creative…our wildest imaginations couldn’t begin to reach His creativity. God uses us for His glory, but everything is His plan, not ours. He has the roadmap.

 

I think that men can be easily deceived, and that they are helpless without God.

(Btw, thank you for posting what is beautiful: the Scripture.)

…What of the other religions of the world, such as Hinduism (which has lasted an extremely long time) and Islam (which has also lasted a very long time)? Would you not say that they belong to satan? God is not glorified in them. Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Light.

Isaiah 14:12—“How you have fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (says literally Day Star), son of the morning! How you are cut to the ground, you who weakened the nations!”

Let’s analyze this. For one thing, in the NKJV, every time ‘you’ appears that is referring to JESUS, it is capitalized. So, if it were in reference to Him, it would have read “How You have fallen from…How You are…ground, You who…” But it doesn’t. Also, Christ did not weaken the nations, or lay low the nations.

If we continue to read the Scripture:

“For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, and I will be like the Most High.’ Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit” (Isaiah 14:13-15).

Addressed to the King of Babylon, it is reminiscent of satan and his desire to be like God. I already expressed to you my small understanding of satan’s position, that he was beautiful (and likely still is) and very powerful (and still is)…but perhaps I am wrong. He is powerful—though still very much so under the authority of God. But after what I’ve read, maybe he is not beautiful. I don’t know. I guess it doesn’t matter, though, because it doesn’t change anything if he is or not.

However, he (satan) is not God, whereas Jesus is. The Lord is not an angel. Nor was He created by God, for They are One. (Note John 17.) Jesus never fell from heaven. He came from His own volition for the glory of God, and He is now exalted:

“Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, eve the death of a cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Philippians 2:5-11).

But I suppose that this is beside the point. I was very troubled when I read through your entire argument and then began to wonder myself…and then I had the brilliant idea of using the Concordance (the thing is huge) I have. I looked up the Hebrew and the Greek, and the Morning Star, etc. and that was even more troubling, because it just didn’t add up…

God gives discernment and truth. The passage is not speaking about/to satan, but the King of Babylon.

The translation(s) are confusing. I will definitely admit that. And I struggled with this as I looked at the Hebrew and the Greek, and was just stumped. I told the Lord that I had no idea how to debate this, because I had no understanding myself. His is the glory for presenting me with Scripture! I went to look up Lucifer for myself on dictionary.com (I suppose you could call that laziness, because I do have a regular dictionary…hehe ^_^’), and there was this link that read: Satan never was Lucifer. Me--…this is worth looking into. So I did. I’d like you to take a look at it too; it’s a very well-composed argument.

L. Ray Smith - The Lake of Fire - Part 9

I want to thank you for showing me something new. If you hadn’t brought this topic up in the way you did, I might not have ever asked God about it, and just carried on with false knowledge.

…So…I guess I’m wrong about the whole fallen thing, maybe. I’m still not sure about everything. But that’s alright, because I can’t know everything, anyway.

I agree with Lucifer doesn’t=satan. I disagree with Lucifer=JESUS because of what I said above, and because of the argument on the link.

 

And that's where a mistake has been made. Jesus is not an angel. He is God. He is truly man, and truly God at the same time. I know you don't believe that God is three beings that are all the same, but Jesus is more than an angel.

 

I apologize if this response is uninformed, because quite honestly I wasnt going to read ALL of that religious mumbo jumbo that I wouldnt understand anyway. What I've gathered is that "mithras" is what you claim "jesus" took his teachings from. Well think about it... Judiasm led into Christianity, which led into Islam. They are very similar religions with a few asthetic differences. I don't see how hard it would be to slip this "mithras" somewhere in the line.

 

It may not even be copying, but Jesus, Abraham, Muhammed etc. bringing those teachings into their own time, and gaining titles as prophets. I don't think they decided to one day steal the religion of some ancient god and pass it off as their own, although I suppose it is possible.

 

He didn't do that. He made Christianity Rome's official religion, and stopped the persecution (sp?) of Christians.

 

…Welp, I’ve got something to say. Sorry I’m backtracking (sort of but not really). I agree with Desert Warrior that JESUS is not an angel or a “chosen angel.” I already discussed this. He is the Great I AM. Understanding who God is—so crucial to this argument. If you don’t know who He is, you can’t accurately say who He isn’t. You have no place/base to do so…not that I mean offense. Rather, if you are going to argue about the Lord and His authority, you should probably know who He is first.

I’ll just say now that Mormonism is a lie and a waste of your time. If anyone preaches another gospel, let him be accursed, Paul states, and this is exactly what Mormonism does. It places the value of Scripture—the Word of God!!—underneath other supposedly “sacred texts.” What could ever be more sacred than God’s Word?! …if only you knew! And how it grieves, also…

Who God is. I only have words. They are not enough to express the holiness of God, the sovereignty of God, the consuming nature of the love of God. These things are revealed by God Himself. I can only speak of His wonder. I can’t, though I so long to, give you my experiences, my convictions, my heart. If you claim open-mindedness, I ask you, be open-minded. Please.

You cannot cross-reference religions and expect to reach truth. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. In other words, syncretism is not acceptable. If you mix objective truth with subjective, is not the objective still the real truth? Perhaps I don’t have the best examples…I am trying to point out that a combination of religions doesn’t somehow yield truth, especially if the only true one is Christianity. (As I expressed before in the Religion thread, God is not interested in shows of devotion (speaking specifically of Islam). This is to say that no matter how devoted people are, if they don’t believe that we are sinners, deserving death, who have been granted mercy--God sent His only Son to die on the cross and that He raised Him from the dead, thus washing them, paying for them the price which had to be paid if they were to have life--if they don’t believe that there is no other name by which they are saved (Jesus only), their religion is worthless. Christ is the only Way. There is no other way. Universalism is just not true.

As for the only difference between other religions…completely off. Atheism: no gods/God. Nihilism: nothing. Pantheism: “mother nature” concept. Animism: spirits (simplified version). Shintoism: similar. Point being: clearly there are many religions out there that do not have three main gods.

Christianity does not have these components. God is God, He is One. Not three, One. You never answered my question before, so I’m going to take the liberty of asking it again: Is it impossible because you can't fathom it, or is it because you don't like it?


Next…

Judaism did not “lead” to Christianity. The only difference (essentially) between followers of Judaism and followers of Christianity is that Christians believe Jesus Christ is the Messiah, and followers of Judaism don’t. No, most Christians do not follow the Torah, but that is because we are not under the law. This is explained by Paul in both Romans and Galatians. But they are still the same religion. Note that relationship is more important than religion…

I agree that it wouldn’t be hard to slip mithras into the “equation.” But that doesn’t change that Islam is false, and that mithraism is false, and that Christianity is true. How does truth come out of falseness? It doesn’t. Mithraism did not lead to Christianity. Falseness did not lead to Truth. (In the case of Islam, Truth is twisted. Muslims deny the true nature of God by denying the Son of God, Jesus Christ.)

And next…

I agree that there has been (and is, in many areas) a lot of corruption. A great deal of paganism is incorporated into the supposedly “Christianized” holidays. But that doesn’t mean that I am bound by such things; the wickedness of men in their corruption of truth does not cast aside the truth of Christ. The churches have not been presenting the Body as it is supposed to be. But this does not mean that Christianity is fake, or false. It just means that people are easily deceived, weak, and ignorant.

…what exactly do you believe in, Mythril Roxas?

 

I got to say that, i'm Moslem. Well i tell you this (sorry if this could upset, because the difference of our religion): First, Messiah isn't Jesus. Messiah is someone that God chose for leading the future Islam against Judaism and Dajjal. He is that who awaken Islam from great sleep and against Judaism. (this is what many moslems believed)

That could be true. But, it's useless in afterlife. In the end, people will divided into Hell and Heaven occupant.

We don't deny Jesus Christ. Because He's one of the Prophet that God sent for teach us from dullness. But our Prophet is Muhammed, and He's the last Prophet that God sent and make religion of Islam. Judaism is what we hate because they cruel and never believed any goodness of God.

I'm sorry to talk like this, but it's because our difference of religion and what our believe

 

Well, in Judaism, the Messiah is the one who is supposed to open Heaven up to them (or something along those lines. I forget). That if Jesus. He is the Messiah Jews speak of, but Jews don't think he is. I don't know why though.

I heard that originally, Islam didn't hate Judaism either. I heard that they believed Christianity was a more evolved form of Judaism, and Islam is a more evolved form of Christianity (Something like that at least). And why hate Judaism? They aren't cruel, and I know they believe in the goodness of God. I know that sounds contradictory to what you just said, but some friends of mine are Jews, and even some of my step-family, and things I've read all told me what I said about them being the opposite of what you put.

 

I know, i never wanted to hate peoples. I do believe that they also believe in goodness of God. But once again, it's all the difference of what they do to believe Him. There are many non-muslim Arabs. Not all Moslems hate Jews. We must be careful to avoid stereotyping people. However, with that said, generally speaking, Arabs and Muslims have a dislike and distrust for Jews, and vice-versa.

 

Understandable. I obviously believe that He is the Messiah. I know what/who the Messiah is …but I obviously disagree with the bit about Islam. There is nothing wrong with Judaism, other than not accepting Christ. That is really the only difference. (But obviously that difference is crucial.)

I meant that you deny Him as who He really is; the Son of God. Thus you deny God. He who denies Me denies Him who sent Me. Judaism is not cruel, nor did the adherents of it not believe in the goodness of God. Haven’t you ever read the Psalms? David delighted in the Lord! He always praises Him. And Job!! I love that book…And the law…Galatians and Romans. The law is like a light illustrating how great our sin is and how impossible it is to save ourselves from it. With the law came death…and with Christ comes life.

It’s fine that you speak as such. Argue and fight for what you believe in if you think it’s worth it. Jesus is worth it.

…I wouldst that you would read more. I also wouldst that you would at least be open to the idea. I know who the Son of God is. I desire that you would trust me. Seek God—genuinely—that He might reveal Himself to you. I cannot give you understanding, but God can. If you really desire to know truth and pursue it, who better to seek than Truth Himself?

Paul, in the beginning, was extremely adamant toward Christianity. He did not believe that Christ was the Messiah, and he persecuted Believers mercilessly. Because you have quoted Scripture, I know that you have access to a Bible, and that you’ve read portions. Read what he has written in the New Testament—at least the parts where he tells about his conversion. It’s in Acts.

I understand that there is a great amount of corruption in the church body. Many have chosen ignorance simply because it’s “the easy way out.” There will be judgment for such things. It ails me that people are turned away because of hypocrisy. People should see Christ in us. When they look at us, they should see Him. If we walk with God, we will be salt and light. If we do not, we lead others also into darkness with us because of our faithlessness.

I wouldst that people cared half as much—even an eighth as much—as Paul did. And Paul cared because he loved God, and God loved through him. (The concept of agape: to love God, so that we can love others through Him.) It’s so beautiful, love. And you can clearly see it all throughout his writing and speech.

Beloved, cross-referencing proves nothing other than the fact that when truth is mixed with untruth, it is no longer pure. (If untruth is mixed with untruth, it doesn’t really matter; it will lead to untruth anyway. But in the former case [and this is what happens with hypocrisy], what was pure becomes impure, and therefore is not truth anymore. It has been distorted.) I am being open-minded. I did say that you taught me something, did I not? And how could I have learned anything had I not been listening?

For other things, I think that cross-referencing is a great resource. Just not for mixing truth…

If we loved you, we would not cause you to stumble so greatly over things that God doesn’t care about. He wants you—all of you. He wants you to worship Him, and only Him, in spirit and in truth. He wants to teach you and walk with you. Because these things—mostly the celebration of holidays with pagan roots supposedly “Christianized”—cause stumbling, they should be done away with for your sakes. I have suffered much persecution because of this, because my brethren were angered with me and without understanding as to why I would turn from such things and why I would rebuke them. One, it is because I love God that I turn away from these things. (Kingdom Hearts itself has many content issues, but the philosophy, or heart, within it that illustrates to me the creators’ views is important to know and understand…). Two, it is for you. I will not do it. I will not place myself above you, but I will honor you above myself, and sacrifice things that are potential stumbling blocks to spare you…in the hopes that you might see and know God, and worship Him.
But people have hard hearts and need softening…so many do not do what I do in regards to such things.

I am human, and I have much to learn. God is so patient—thank You!! Even when I fall, He is there to catch me. And I fall often. Our God is a gracious, just, and loving God.

The question was in regards to God as a triune Being. Is it impossible in your mind because you can’t fathom it, or because you don’t like it? You said that you deny what is lie (a lie) and truly accept what is truth. Really? How do you know what is truth, and what is a lie if you are finite and do not seek the infinite (God)? Humans cannot know this truth of God in and of themselves. It is revealed.

Ah. Hence my confusion. You are not an Atheist. Why did you not tell me so? I would have possibly added greater emphasis on certain parts…I had suspicions that you believed in God (some sort of Higher Power), yet I knew that you did not accept God as a triune Being.

I understand why you might believe that. When I was searching (and I searched for at least 5 years or so; I’m 19, was Saved at 17), I did want to go to any church. I thought that most of them were corrupt (many are). But many are not. I explained before that it is not about religion. It is about relationship. So, in a way, you are right. A bunch of rituals aren’t going to save you, or help you with anything.

But you will not find what you are looking for inside yourself. I tried that. It was obviously unsuccessful. If you want to know who God is, look at Jesus. For just one moment, one day, something, genuinely seek Truth. Spiritual belief is sacred. God is holy!

I know that it can be very hard to accept any of this. I hope that you would at least consider it though.

 

Before I go into greater details, one, let’s put aside the Mithraism debate for now—because we need a foundation to debate on first. Let’s focus (ish) on you and I.

First things first again before going too much deeper:
…Why are you calling me a good person? I…do not understand.

Second: Can you describe to me more in depth your experience as a hard core Lutheran/Christian?

I’m trying to see what you see, and I need your help to do that.

Not to insult you (that is, if this is insulting), but you remind me of myself tremendously. You have a genuine openness, a willingness to learn, you are quite possibly teachable (not meant to be an insult, of course!)—meaning again that you have an incredible amount of tolerance. We share this. Of course, this does not give me any excuse to be prideful; rather, I see it as a gift that I have been given that is going to be very useful in ministry…the point is, though, you are open, and you are searching in that openness. I understand why you view me—or might view me—as close-minded. I long to share with you and hope that you would have understanding…but I must be mindful that this is revealed by God, not by men.

Consider this: if there is a source of all truth, then is that truth not all from the source from which it originated? If God is Truth (Jesus stated Himself that He is the Truth, the Way, and the Life), then under this “idea,” does it not indicate that every single truth that exists in this entire universe is His and belongs to Him and originates from Him?

This is why I say that mixed things—in certain cases, note this, for in some things, mixing is very good, and acceptable, and useful; in religion the mixing of ideas in terms of who is God and who He is is not acceptable—are not truth. God is not truth and untruth. So, to take that which is untruth and mix it with that which is truth is once again distorting it. Who am I to distort the God’s truth with the ideas of men?

…continuing as before…also, in being open, you are curious, and thoughtful, sober…and seem willing to put in the effort that getting answers is going to take: a lot. For this I commend you, that in your curiosity you actively search for answers. (In this we are also alike, continuing with the idea…)

As for some background on myself if you are the least bit interested: I drifted before toward Atheism…and then toward something more New Age—not sure what…then more paganism—Wicca—and then God revealed Himself to me, and I was/am His forever. This isn’t to say that the road has been easy…but I don’t have to wonder why I exist anymore, and be frustrated with the answers of men.